Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?
The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.
In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.
So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).
Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”
This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.
Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do) rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).
I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)
It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.
According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:
1) Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2) Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.
None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.
First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:
To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”
The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.
While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.
Now the researchers get into the details of the math:
Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:
A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).
B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.
C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.
For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.
What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.
NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.
I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.
I don’t know. Why are you?
You still haven’t explained why you feel the need to tell us you’re “not that guy”. It has a real skeletons-in-the-closet denial about it.
That Guy:
So… intellectual honesty involves 1: making an unsupported assertion that someone is neig dishonest about something.
2: Insisting that they need to “confess” to being wrong to prove they are honset.
3: Never dealing with the data which is presented to show why the assertion of error was factually incorrect.
Are we supposed to know what “it” is standing in for when that guy says “You could be honest about it?” I haven’t a clue.
The number of victims of cat-related violence in the manosphere compared to the average population?
I don’t think it’s that so much as an immature attempt to voice opposition to the Feminist Gynocracy.
@Argenti, no it’s okay, thank you. So does the different approach in mathematics affect the objectivity of a stats analysis? and which do you think is a more objective approach?
I thought so too, but I don’t know if it accounts the for the huge disparity. For women it’s 1:20 for 12 months:lifetime, correct? I just don’t think it’s b/c child abuse isn’t factored into the last 12 months. if I looked at this correctly, these stats don’t quite match up. http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cm-data-sheet–2013.pdf I am aware that we are looking at reports here, but I’m still not comfortable saying the lifetime data looks so differently due to child abuse. I do agree, that age is probably the defining factor. Like you said in your analogy, young boys can’t be mtp and since the questioners in the study decided when somebody was eligable for the “mtp” category, I expected to see other numbers under “sexual violence” to go up massively but nothing like that is showing, so I think that numbers are actually equal but documentation isn’t.
Also, I realize this horse has loooong since bolted the stable, but can I just say that I appreciate the Boobzers coming to bat over the defintion for male sexual violence? I didn’t get involved, because honestly, it upset me too much, because by the earlier standards, what happened to me wasn’t rape, and hearing other people debate and discuss whether such experiences (not necessarily mine, and yet JUST LIKE MINE) count as rape or not. I’m glad you changed your mind, David.
@Argenti never mind, a friend helped out by accessing her library database. Here is the full study; http://imgur.com/GRgWIKZhttp://www.imagebanana.com/view/jkj3api0/Accuracyofadultrecollectionsofchildh.png
she found an offline version as well, but didn’t want to upload it b/c was unsure of the legal status.
Hannasoumaki — no, given the survey participant’s ages, I doubt age is the main factor. If they were younger, maybe, but I doubt the difference in male versus female victims before they hit 18 could account for that much difference when the participants were mostly middle aged.
And btw, I’m not a student anymore, no uni access, I can get around that since I know people with access, but asking your friend is probably the better bet.
re access: If there is a local college (community, or 4 year) one can often use their library computers, and so get JSTOR access.
Thanks for the link, hannasoumaki.
It really does look like, as I initially expected, that the gender difference mentioned in the Widom and Morris study is really just referring to whether the respondents consider themselves sexually abused. It doesn’t follow from this study that men will underreport sexual abuse even in a survey that uses behavior-specific screening questions. In short, Typhonblue’s citation is even sillier than I thought.
Pecunium — Yale? Yeah, not dealing with that when my pharm student is, well, a student. (Email me, I want to whine about code)
If that wasn’t directed at me, then yes, do that.
Ally — silly is one word for it. I couldn’t get it to work on the iPad and the mac is in Vista cuz coding, but that’s about what I suspected — it isn’t that men are less likely to remember it but less likely to call it sexual abuse. Which implies that when asked the sorts of specific questions the CDC asked, that study is irrelevant.
Not only that, but also the researches did not even verify whether the abuse that was disclosed was connected in any way to the officially documented cases of abuse. So yeah, it has methodological flaws as well.
I went back to that link and realized that it didn’t upload, my mistake so here’s a better one (i hope); http://www.imagebanana.com/view/jkj3api0/Accuracyofadultrecollectionsofchildh.png
@Argenti I don’t think I’m better off either, I’m not at school due to medical leave and my friend doesn’t want to violate copyright issues, i believe. But how was age not a factor here? Didn’t the commenters back in the last page discuss that?
@Ally S but whether they considered it abuse or couldn’t remember, wouldn’t the results show up the same way?
You went to Yale?!
hannasoumaki: Yale is the school nearby.
Re: Yale — what he said.
As for age, I don’t think it’s the main factor — it probably is a factor though.
“@Ally S but whether they considered it abuse or couldn’t remember, wouldn’t the results show up the same way?”
It’s two studies — the one that found that men were less likely to report/remember abuse asked the men in question whether they’d been abused. The CDC one asked about specific scenarios, making the question moot. So for the CDC one, no, not remembering it would lower the number. But there’s fuck all proof that the other study found that they remembered less, as opposed to reporting less or not defining it as sexual assault.
hannasoumaki, think about this way:
The Widom and Morris study asked men with official, legally documented cases of sexual abuse questions about specific experiences (behavior specific questions without words like “abuse”) in order to screen for child abuse. And then if they answered yes to any of those questions, they were asked another question: whether they consider any of those reported experiences to be child sexual abuse. 64% of women who reported abusive experiences answered yes to that question, whereas only 16% of men who reported abusive experiences did so.
Anyway, the MRAs are using this study as proof that the discrepancy between male rape victims and female rape victims for lifetime incidence is a result of men being reluctant to report their abuse in a survey. But their argument is unsound because the CDC study also screened for sexual violence with behavior-specific questions. It did not ask whether the respondents considered their experiences violent, abusive, etc.
Basically, all the study shows is that men are less likely to call abuse they have already reported what it really is: sexual abuse. It does not imply that men are less likely to disclose abusive experiences in a survey with behavior specific questions to screen for victimization.
Holy shit, check this out:
That’s the fucking sample size used for the study, folks.
Did any MRA parroting this study even bother to fucking check it?!? =S Wow. They really have hit a new low.
That’s…wow…I’ve done studies with bigger sample sizes. It’s called ask a psych class.
@Ally S Thank you for clarifying for me. And for the useful note on sample size, I’m embarrassed to admit I didn’t take a better look at it.
@Argenti sorry to be a bigger hindrance, but i will be unable to be here for a week. I don’t know if I should keep adding to this thread when the original post is over a week now. do you think it would be a bother to contact you some other way for other questions? and i appreciate you and Ally S’s guidance so far, I hope I didn’t annoy you too much.
Eh, I don’t have a problem with keeping old threads alive as long as it’s on topic, which this has been. I’ll set it to notify of new comments. Probably better anyways, I’m sorta buried in other things at the month myself.
>the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones
In one poster out of how many? And how many posters featured a female rapist?
>trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains.
If they’re trying to cast women as victims, don’t you think they’d come up with a number higher than 40%? If they’re just making shit up, surely they’d claim women are the majority of rapists, right?
>The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated
Our definition is correct because our definition says so!
>Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).
Allright, so just make all the data you’ve collected available and let us do the math ourselves, for both males and females.
>the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).
So then, anyone using this study to argue that men are a certain percentage of rapists would be equally wrong?
>Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.
So then, if this isn’t accurate, what useful data did your study actually produce?
>For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.
Allright, and I’m assuming you’ll get right on that.
Dude, really?
Go read the fucking comments. Those “points” of yours have already been brought up and addressed.
And no, you cannot draw conclusions about perpetrators from a study about victims.
“40% of rapists are women” is based on bad math. It is completely inaccurate.
The “Don’t Be That Guy” posters focused on male rapists because, yes, the majority of rapes are committed by men.
And nobody is using the NIPSVS to determine the percentage of rapes committed by men.