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CDC: MRA claims that “40% of rapists are women” are based on bad math and misuse of our data

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Feminists often complain, with considerable justification, that Men’s Rights Activists try to turn every conversation about women’s issues into a game of “what about the men?” You’re talking about female rape victims — well, what about the male rape victims?

The trouble with this strategy, from the point of view of the Men’s Rights Activists anyway, is that this little “gotcha” is much less of a “gotcha” then they’d like it to be.

In the case of rape, for example, feminists are well aware that men are raped as well: the “Don’t Be That Guy” ad campaign, which sent so many MRAs into hysterics, focused on male victims as well as female ones. The emergency room rape advocate organization that a friend of mine volunteers for  provides advocacy for victims regardless of gender.

So many MRAs have started playing another game: trying to twist the conversation around in order to cast women as the villains. Rape is a bit tough for them here, since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. So MRAs talk about the alleged epidemic of female false accusers instead. Or they change the topic entirely and make dead baby jokes (see my post yesterday).

Recently, MRAs have tried a new strategy, seizing on data from The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, a massive study conducted in 2010 under the aegis of the Centers for Disease Control, to claim that “40% of rapists are women.”

This is a claim repeated by numerous MRAs on numerous websites; see, for example, this post by A Voice for Men’s Typhonblue on the blog GendErratic. Here’s the same claim made into an “infographic” for the Men’s Rights subreddit.

Trouble is, this claim is flat-out false, based on an incorrect understanding of the NISVS data. But you don’t have to take my word for it: the NISVS researchers themselves say the MRA “interpretation” of their data is based on bad math. It’s not just a question of different definitions of rape: the MRA claims are untenable even if you include men who were “made to penetrate” women as victims of rape (as the MRAs do)  rather than as victims of “sexual violence other than rape” (as the NISVS does).

I wrote to the NISVS for clarification of this matter recently, and got back a detailed analysis, straight from the horse’s mouth, of where the MRA arguments went wrong. This is long, and a bit technical, but it’s also pretty definitive, so it’s worth quoting in detail. (I’ve bolded some of the text below for emphasis, and broken some of the larger walls of text into shorter paragraphs.)

It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists … is flawed.  First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion.

According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:

1)      Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;

2)      Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.

None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations.

First the researchers clarify the issue of definition:

To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.”

The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else.

While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions.

Now the researchers get into the details of the math:

Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:

A.      While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization).  This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization.  In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000).

B.      An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population.  Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator).  Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.

C.      Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators).  While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims.  These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators.

For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples.  Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls.  It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”.  It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together.  Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).

D.      As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators).  Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).

E.      Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition.

Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria.  For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.

So you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board, MRAs.

What is especially distressing here is that the NISVS data could have been the starting point for a serious discussion of male victims of sexual assault by women, which is a real and often overlooked issue. Unfortunately, MRAs have once again poisoned the well by misusing data in an attempt to exaggerate the purported villainy of women and score cheap rhetorical points.

NOTE: A regular in the AgainstMensRights subreddit approached the NISVS researchers with this same question some months back. Unfortunately, the statement they got back from the NISVS contained an incorrect number. The statement I’m quoting here corrects this number and adds more context.

I can provide contact info for the NISVS representative who got back to me on this to any serious (non-troll) person who requests it.

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Shaun DarthBatman Day
11 years ago

For Tamen. In case you run out of dishonest false equivalencies and need to make more posts. There are some great lines in here that I can fully imagine you have frequently used already. Small TW for others.

hannasoumaki
11 years ago

@argenti hi. im sorry if these are stupid questions, was it more effective to combine the stats from the two categories then, since they were practically the same thing? did the nisvs do the same?
i don’t know if anyone here frequents tumblr but i first accessed this post from an egalitarian that often discusses men’s issues; http://hannasoumaki.tumblr.com/post/65504154859/cdc-mra-claims-that-40-of-rapists-are-women-are and they said this;
“there’s the sheer ludicrousness of using the claims of the authority being accused of presenting biased data to defend said allegedly biased data. <- what?
"Notice how Futrelle doesn’t mention that the famous Genderratic post also provides evidence that the lifetime numbers are unreliable. Nor does he acknowledge that even assuming the lifetime numbers are correct, you’ve still got a lot more female rapists and male victims than conventionally acknowledged, and certainly more than claimed by most feminists."
Not sure if this is true? and how does anyone mistake a lifetime figure w/ a 12-mo. figure? wouldn't the lifetime be noticeably larger?

@ally s, hi. can you elaborate further on what reason you think the nisvs may have to separate mtp and rape? i could just ask the researcher themselves but i think im missing something that everyone's getting, feels like it's going over my head

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

@mr. futrelle, do you mind explaining in depth why you don’t technically consider it rape, though? whether you decide to or not, i will still agree to just disagree.

I know that wasn’t aimed at me, and I don’t know that my view on the matter and his are the same but, personally, I think it’s important to keep things tightly classified in the law.
I mean, look at this part of the UK Sexual Offences Act – it’s relatively clear… I have issues with some of it (I don’t see how you can reasonably believe that someone consents when they don’t) but it’s clear. And look at this part – it’s already getting confusing and it only addresses a little more than the first part. So I think we do need to keep it very clear.
There may be an argument for classifying it all as rape, and subclassifying in the law which would avoid complicating legal language, but I think it’s more important that the punishments for like crimes be equal than that the label is equal. That said, I wouldn’t argue against changing the legal language, so long as it didn’t complicate it or lead to like crimes having unlike punishments (not that I think such a change would have that effect).

But that’s all about legal language anyway, and we don’t really use legal language in common conversation. The commonly understood definition of rape is non-consensual sexual interaction, so I think it should be called rape in non-legal conversation. Just not in the law, unless it’s fully overhauled to be a main classification, with the current legal definition, being forced to penetrate, and other like crimes as sub-classifications.

Btw, if I’m horribly wrong here (and I know I don’t need to say this, because you will) feel entirely free to correct me, because I realise that I’m wrong often enough to know that my opinion is not Truth.

Shaun DarthBatman Day
11 years ago

Athywren, we already have subcatagories of rape. To add one more does not seem inappropriate or difficult, it *does* seem inappropriate to refuse to legitimise all rape. Although in Canada we don’t have “rape” we have different catagories of “sexual assault”. Which I hate. Call it rape. Hopefully if we do so vehemently enough, people (I’m looking at you, the msm) will stop calling rape “sex”.

Ally S
11 years ago

Oh look, siryouarebeingmocked has replied to this article: http://siryouarebeingmocked.tumblr.com/post/65484464973/cdc-mra-claims-that-40-of-rapists-are-women-are

The entire post is shit, but this stuck out to me:

“** 2x Orwell Reference Combo!”

He really does fit the stereotype of MRAs.

Marie
Marie
11 years ago

@hannasoumaki

Hi and welcome 😀

but you’ll find my mathematical skills are abysmal and i am constantly turning to others for help.
can anyone here recommend a good site or book i can use – like a beginner’s guide on mathematical statistics?

I join you in the being bad a math stuff, but I haven’t really been interested in learning more so…um, at least you have company? Though hopefully someone else can help you, I just can’t.

@shaun darthbatman day

Anyway, goodnight all. Need sleep. Long fight with a friends family to continue tomorrow and all.

Long story short, she’s suffering from mental illness and they are being complete asshats about it and being the opposite of supportive to her and anytime someone is supportive they attack and it’s a huge pile of blarg. I think they might adopt me soon! (Where is the sarcasm font when I need it?)

Man, they sound like jerks 🙁 Hugs for you and your friend.

SittieKitty
11 years ago

Re Shaun DarthBatman Day’s video.

Hey look, satire that’s actually satire! It’s so rare to see nowadays.

P.S. I love that video, it’s hilarious.

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Howard, SittieKitty — I checked how they handled people who’d experienced multiple forms of violence and here’s the relevant bit (page 22 of he PDF)

Within categories of violence
(e.g., rape, other sexual violence, any severe physical violence, any reported IPV-related impact), respondents who reported more than one subcategory of violence are included only once in the summary estimate but are included in each relevant subcategory. For example, victims of completed forced penetration and alcohol or drug facilitated penetration are included in each of these subtypes of rape but counted only once in the estimate of rape prevalence.

Also, bottom of page 3 in the comments here, Blair does bad math, which I will address once I manage to stop noptopusing over it.

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Hannasoumaki — no I meant a four way table as in two columns — male and female — by two rows — rape and made to penetrate. For just the 12 month data, because those four data points are the only ones relevant to the question at hand.

Clearly I failed at making it less confusing!

SittieKitty
11 years ago

Awesome Argenti! Thanks for clarifying that for me!

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Blair, your math itself is fine, we could argue over the unknown variable, but it’ smooth because your conclusion is the problem.

“So, over the past 12 months (in 2010), 37% of rapes were perpetrated by women.”

No, you calculated the number of rape victims with at least one rapist who was female. Your math still misses both victims with more than one rapist/rape, and rapists with more than one victim. Please see the CDC’s response and find the example about apples. You know how many victims there were, not how many rapes there were.

To make this simple, let’s say we have two rape victims, one male, one female, now…
If both are raped once by a woman and a man, respectively, then 50% of rapes would be committed by women.
If the man is raped twice by different women, and the woman raped once by a man, then you have three rapes, but 66% of rapes would have been committed by women.
If the man is raped once by a woman, and the woman raped twice by two different men, then 66% of rapes would have been committed by men.

Seeing the problem here?

Howard Bannister
11 years ago

there’s the sheer ludicrousness of using the claims of the authority being accused of presenting biased data to defend said allegedly biased data.

They’re saying the CDC is a suspect source of any data and any math.

For realz.

For example, victims of completed forced penetration and alcohol or drug facilitated penetration are included in each of these subtypes of rape but counted only once in the estimate of rape prevalence.

So my overall point here is that if we simply folded ‘made to penetrate’ into ‘rape’ that we’d lose information here.

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

SittieKitty — no problem 🙂

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Is NWO back? Because my favorite Owly moment was when he was laughing at me for trusting CDC data.

Shaun DarthBatman Day
11 years ago

Thanks, Marie. I woke up to, and this is a direct quote, “I’m sorry you feel that way” to my friend from her family when she was trying to explain her depression/mental illness/ assorted symptoms and how she felt they were treating her. Urge to kill rising.

“Maybe I’m wrong here. Obviously most people here disagree with me.” Yep. I adore you, but you are very wrong here. Not all men are rapists, not all rapists are men.

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Oh and thanks, putting my math to use in this manner is far more important to me than running tapes for my mother’s inventory (oi did that suck)

Tamen
11 years ago

Shaun DarthBatman Day:

Tamen, are you saying that catcalling = groping someone on public transit?

No. And I don’t understand where you ot the “groping someone in public transit” from. Unless…here is what I wrote (Did you misread the word I bolded!):

The “sexual violence other than rape” also included the act “Non-contact unwanted sexual experiences” – a category most would agree is less serious than being forced to have intercourse. Would you say that is a natural grouping?
Being forced to have intercourse without consent and for instance catcalling?

Before you accuse me, read the rest of my comments where I disagree with MTP not being called rape,

Thank you for that stance and for voicing it. I see that you didn’t extent me the courtesy you asked from me with that little video and all. Have a nice day.

Marie
Marie
11 years ago

@Shaun DarthBatman Day

*eyetwitch* Her family sounds awful. At least you’re there for her :/ Idk, just rambly today. I’m depressed, but my family is mostly cool/ decent about it, and I can’t imagine how much worse I’d feel if they weren’t. Idk hopefully my ramblings make a little sense? Sorry, feeling weird today.

And, I’ve kinda been ignoring the main conversation going on here, but count me in the number of thinking made-to-penetrate is also rape, if we’re keeping track.

Um, maybe this comment made sense? ::crosses fingers::

Ally S
11 years ago

You know, it’s interesting that this problem hasn’t been detected by MRAs:

Typhonblue argues that the lifetime figures are unreliable because men are less likely to disclose being sexually abused in their childhood. And then she goes on to use information from the lifetime sample of victims, which she has already deemed less reliable, to make a conclusion about a more accurate sample – the 12-month sample of victims. MRAs, please learn to logic.

Shaun DarthBatman Day
11 years ago

Marie, it makes perfect sense. Sending all the hugs you want and/or need, and some extras for your family for being cool/decent. Unfortunately I am removed by distance so not as there as possible, but I know she has some supports. I just can’t believe how many of her family members are all “you don’t know anything” when I can see every snide, hurtful, and/or downright abusive comment they make to her on FB. So I quote them back to themselves with their abuse highlighted and tips on how not to be an ass to someone who is ill/hurting/in need. I’m expecting to quadruple my Christmas card intake this year! *sobs*

Howard Bannister
11 years ago

@Shaun

“Maybe I’m wrong here. Obviously most people here disagree with me.” Yep. I adore you, but you are very wrong here. Not all men are rapists, not all rapists are men.

?

Even if we were to treat ‘being made to penetrate’ as different than ‘being penetrated’ that very much does not leave men in the position of not being able to be raped.

Howard Bannister
11 years ago

(which is not to deny the possibility of him being wrong here, because, um, I am scrupulously not touching that because I am currently unable to come up with a coherent thought on that. But what separates us from the trolls is the ability to really pick apart the nuances of each other’s positions and deal honestly and fairly with each other!)

Tamen
11 years ago

titianblue:

@tamen, see Bee’s comment on the previous page of comments and mine above. The CDC may define MTP as rape but the researchers will have been restricted by how their source data is collected.

No. The data was collected through a survey. The survey was designed by CDC. That includes the questionaire used. The questions used can be seen in appendix C (page 106) in the NISVS 2010 Report (pdf).

Here is one of the question pertaining rape and being made to penetrate:

When you were drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent, how
many people ever had vaginal sex with you? By vaginal sex, we mean that {if female: a man or boy put his penis in your vagina} {if male: a woman or girl made you put your penis in her vagina}?

If a woman answered 1 or more on this question she would have been categorized as a rape victim. If a man answered 1 or more on this question he would have been categorized as a victim of being made to penetrate.

Explain to me what restrictions you believe could restrict the CDC from categorizing that male respondents as having been raped. Even if they kept the “being made to penetrate” category there is no techinical restrictions which would keep them from categorizing “made to penetrate” as rape.

Another one:

How many people have ever used physical force or threats to physically harm you to make you have vaginal sex?

If a woman answered 1 or more on this question she would have been categorized as a rape victim.
If a man answered 1 or more on this question he would have been cateogorized as a victim of being made to penetrate.

There is nothing in the way the data was collected (I also recommed reading appendix B – techinical notes which describe the sampling strategy used) which prohibited the authors of NISVS 2010 from categorizing male victims of being made to penetrate as rape.

cloudiah
11 years ago

Statistics text books: Well, it isn’t exactly beginner-level, but one of the faculty where I work makes his Probability & statistics textbook freely available online as a wiki, which I think is pretty cool. You can find it here:
http://wiki.stat.ucla.edu/socr/index.php/EBook

Maybe Argenti or someone can tell me if it’s any good. 🙂

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