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Redditor fights Jaclyn Friedman’s accusations of Men’s Rights misogyny with … more misogyny

Proper credentials are very important in internet arguments
Proper credentials are very important in internet arguments

Well, so far this is my favorite response to Jaclyn Friedman’s American Prospect piece on the Men’s Rightsers and that woman-hating problem of theirs. Because what better way to refute charges of misogyny than by declaring derisively that you “can usually spot whether or not a woman wrote a piece by the first few sentences?”

Let’s let rjworks13 explain just why Friedman lacks the intellectual heft to be taken seriously by serious men with credentials — sorry, CREDENTIALS — like him:

rjworks13 3 points 5 hours ago (4|1)  I'm still uncertain if posting these pamphleteer hack writers should be posted in this men's rights forum. Hear me out. CREDENTIALS: I'm a long-time trained technical and creative writer from male-based military training and put to use over 20 years. I've gotten so gifted (or cursed) that I can usually spot whether or not a woman wrote a piece by the first few sentences. I'm probably one of the few males who have read all of Susan Faludi's work - she's actually an impressive writer, feminist or no.  Jaclyn Friedman is a hack huckster. She's at the low end of the feminist writer pool with a Master's of Fine Arts in Creative Writing. Not impressive. Her claim to fame is to act as rear guard for Women, Action and the Media (WAM), a watchdog organization to exploit the missives of any opposition to the feminist movement which now controls the media. Unlike Susan Faludi, her intent is not to give any men's groups a fair shake. Notice how she took down every sub-group of the MRM. That's her strategy - to flesh out any and all real or perceived faults with the MRM by attacking it's sub-parts. Her writes are propaganda in style telling women how to think about MRAs, MGTOW and man (including players) in general. Our response should be simply that we dismiss anything written or published by Jaclyn Friedman and those like her.  MRMs should practice and demonstrate a standing rule. "We do not recognize individuals or groups who use deceptive rhetoric, lies, indifference propaganda or hate tactics, to shore up opposition against the the benevolent efforts of egalitarianism of any sexual orientation, seeking the manifestation of legislative egalitarian values." My 2 cents.

Oh boy.

I have to say that very favorite sentence of all in this wondrous bit of HeManWomanHatersplaining is this one, if it can even be called a sentence:

CREDENTIALS: I’m a long-time trained technical and creative writer from male-based military training and put to use over 20 years.

Oy. I can only assume from the evidence of this, er, sentence, that as a technical writer his job is to make sure that instruction manuals are as unreadable as possible. And that his “creative” writing most likely consists of many volumes of self-published Gorean porn.

If you want to compare Jaclyn Friedman’s CREDENTIALS with his, you can always go to her Wikipedia entry. I looked around a bit for rjworks13’s Wikipedia entry, but he doesn’t seem to have one.

rjworks13 was evidently so proud of this bit of writing of his that he deleted it. Luckily, I grabbed a screenshot beforehand. ABS: Always Be Screenshotting.

PS What’s “indifference propaganda?”

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kittehserf
7 years ago

No, it’s not like there isn’t enough of that in feminism anyway.

Even before that, her “Oh but I want Feminist Times to be like Private Eye” just has a lot of side-eye from me. Sorry, putting out pieces about forced sterilisationor by some guy on about his love of porn doesn’t sound either satirical or feminist. She really comes across like her understanding of satire is the same as the MRM’s. Never mind she’s punching down (pretty obvious she’s happy to do that from the Bulger article), never mind that’s not what satire’s about. She just sounds like an attention-seeker.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

At best, her editorial judgement is terrible. I’d have reservations even without that based on the fee issue, but if you can’t put out even a couple of issues without leaving potential readers going “WTF is this shit?” then you’ve horribly misjudged your market.

Malitia
Malitia
7 years ago

So I played around with the Gender Guesser (ran through it a year and a half worth of longer devart journals): It guessed me male most of the time. I only got female on 3 pieces: 1 about racism, 1 about the funereal of a family member, and 1 highly nostalgic rant about tabletop RPGs. (Does this thing equate “talking about family/friends and emotion” with being a woman?)
But then again not being a native speaker probably didn’t help.

Google also thinks I’m a guy… also older 35-44. And gave up on guessing language. ^^;

naltia
naltia
7 years ago

I tried out that Gender Guesser using three fanfiction stories I wrote years ago.

I came up as weak Male for two of them, and weak Female for one. Strangely enough, the one that came up “weak Female” was one that I had written from the first-person perspective of a MAN.

DOH! >.<

BTW: Ally S might like these stories; they are "Slayers" fanfics. 🙂

kittehserf
7 years ago

I’m gonna have to find some of Louis’s letters from his earthly days and plug ’em into this thing.

Come to think of it, the thing’s analysis of historical letters, journals etc generally would be amusing to see.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

Since we’re sort of on the topic of women in the media here, what do people think of the new Feminist Times in the UK? So far I can’t say I’m impressed, based on everything from the fee-based structure to the initial decision to call it Spare Rib without bothering to consult any of the Spare Rib founders. The actual content so far has not exactly allayed those initial concerns.

Thank you!

I hated it, hated it, hated it! I think you said everything I ranted at Mr M about!

That porn article was just so pointless, to summarise he said:

I like porn with large ladies, which somehow makes me a new feminist man.
I realise porn is bad mmkay.
I’m totally gonna go on watching porn.

I mean fine, but what the fuck is this doing in a feminist magazine?

Also, what the hell is wrong with that website? I haven’t seen a format like that since 1995!
It is shockingly bad, I could do better on wordpress with a bottle of vodka and a single afternoon!

And I’ve not even touched on that taboo corner shit!

I totally agree that Raven is the last person who should be doing this, more white middle class feminism we do not need.

Brooked
Brooked
7 years ago

She’s starting to sound like a middle-class version of Alf Garnett, who was forever on about his SiL being a “Scouse git”.

I have no idea what you’re talking about but I’m loving how British it is.

bodycrimes
7 years ago

Sooo glad to hear the comments about Feminist Times. Before it opened, I tried to contact Raven to offer some money, after I read a Guardian article about her fund raising. Emails went unanswered. Guess they didn’t need a donation. When I saw the website and the fee structure, all I could think of is that they don’t understand digital media very well. Plus, the content was boring and ham fisted. Just like Ms magazine is boring and worthy. It’s kind of same old same old. I’d love some feminism that’s a bit older than Jezebel and not so celebrity and pop culture focused, that it still fun and subversive.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

@bodycrimes, totally agree, Jezebel has some good articles but for me feels too pop media.
It would be nice to have a slightly more academic, Man Boobz snarky version.

The Man Boobz community should all contribute and make our own. Now that’s an online feminist magazine I could enjoy.

bodycrimes
7 years ago

@ophelia. I was just thinking that myself. Get a group of likeminded bloggers together and create a magazine. And not just about sex, which – as entertaining as it is – has been talked about ad infinitum. About tech stuff and gaming and women in philosophy and all those other current flashpoints. And women entrepreneurs – too much old school feminism disapproves of women who’ve joined the capitalist project.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

@bodycrimes
To me, it seems Man Boobz and the comments section is one of the only truly inclusive, funny and academically minded feminist sites online.

It embraces the complex issues surrounding all groups who identify as feminist. Many say they do, but in practice they seem to be in the dark ages.

There is a massive gap for intersectional feminism that is funny, inclusive, and actually understands digital media.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

Ooh, ooo, Instead of a taboo corner we should totally have a troll corner. 🙂

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

I can’t write, but if you go wordpress.org I will totally design an entire theme for this project.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@ophelia

The Man Boobz community should all contribute and make our own. Now that’s an online feminist magazine I could enjoy.

I’d love reading that 🙂

toujoursgai
7 years ago

I, too, would read the hell out of a Man Boobz magazine.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I’m so glad that I’m not the only one going “WTF is this shit?”. And hey, I know I’m not the only person here with writing and/or editing experience, so a group site could in theory be done.

I quite like the general idea of Jezebel, my main problem with it is that it’s part of Gawker and that means lots of blatant troll-bait and a tendency to dumb things down. Also, am I the only person who doesn’t find Lindy West funny? I get that funny is what she’s going for, but it falls flat a lot of the time from my perspective.

Ally S
7 years ago

A Man Boobz magazine would be fabulous! =D

kittehserf
7 years ago

Brooked:

She’s starting to sound like a middle-class version of Alf Garnett, who was forever on about his SiL being a “Scouse git”.

I have no idea what you’re talking about but I’m loving how British it is.

Alf Garnett was the main character in Til Death Us Do Part that ran 1965 – 1975. It satirised British working class racism, among other things. You know All In The Family? That was based on Til Death Us Do Part.

bodycrimes
7 years ago

Game on for a Manboobz mag.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

@ bodycrimes

On your comment about trying to contact Raven to offer financial support and not getting a response – that’s such a perfect illustration of what’s wrong with her approach. Obviously media people can’t answer all their emails (I know I ignore a lot of PR stuff that’s just not relevant), but if a supporter contacts you to offer money, you respond, even if it’s just to say “thanks but we’ve got that covered”.

cloudiah
7 years ago

I sometimes find Lindy West funny. Her review of the Game of Thrones books was pretty hilarious. But most of the time I’m more “meh” (autocorrect tried to change that to “hen”).

Man Boobz : the Magazining sounds fantastic.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Hit post too soon: We have to have a regular scented fucking candles review page. And maybe a beauty column. And maybe a regular Man Boobz Mythos feature, where we can list the weird things they claim about David & other manboobzers.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Manboobz Mythos should be gems from our trolls though. Like Spanish and Russian sharing an alphabet.

Hm…that could be “trolls say the darnedest things” huh?

cloudiah
7 years ago

Yeah, I think “(Misogynist) Trolls Say the Darnedest Things” would be a good heading for that.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

OT but also from the Guardian – look, creepy “it’s not pedophilia it’s ephebophilia and it’s natural and wah you’re trying to repress me” comments ahoy!

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/oct/21/balthus-cats-girls-paintings-provocations-metropolitan-review

This is one a particularly good example of the “creepy older dudes who want to fuck adolescents wank endlessly about it online” subspecies.

http://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/28160511

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Man Boobz: The Magazining

Scented FUCKING Candle Reviews
Oppressing Men with Beauty Products
Manboobz Mythos
Misogynist Trolls Say the Darnedest Things

…guys, we should actually do this. If anyone has server space to go wordpress.org with it, I’ll totally make us a very misandrist theme 🙂

Athywren
Athywren
7 years ago

@Cassandra. I do not like that link.
This “almost all men are ephebophiles” thing… I don’t know… is this just proof that I really have no association with the gender I was born to, or is it just offensive bollocks intended to provide support for the manipulation of sexually immature young people into sexual situations?
I suppose it doesn’t really matter – despite their claims to sexual open mindedness, they rarely seem to have much thought for non-binary identities, and they would almost certainly include me and people like me in their definition of men. So fuck you, Steeevyo, emmcol. As I so often find myself driven to say since discovering the MRM and it’s siblings – you do not speak for me! And ffs, szegedin74, if you’re going to be revolting and make a point of using the British spelling of paedophilia, it’s ae, not ea. At least be disgusting with good spelling.

Athywren
Athywren
7 years ago

I’m onboard with the Manboobazine, btw. Those of us with male pieces could write a mansplaining column, describing the ways in which a man may sell his soul to the feminazi devils and pretend that women are people.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Fuck, what repellent paintings and what repellent comments …

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

Argenti – I want to help out on the Manboobzer Magazine! I’ll do a feature called “revealing the Feminazi agenda”, where I mock what MRAs think we do!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

My favorite part about the comment I linked is how outraged dude seems to be that teenage boys are allowed to have sex with teenage girls, ie society is generally OK with kids fooling around with each other, provided they’re more or less the same age. Those awful 16-year-old “wankers”, why should they get all the 14-year-old ass?

If he was any more transparent you could use him to wrap your leftovers in.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Plus dismissing women in their thirties as “girls” who are dried up and past it. Yeah, dude, really obvious.

There was also that piece of filth upthread who said people were really just turned on by that horrific Guitar Lesson piece, rather than, y’know, actually disgusted by it.

If that’s Deep and Meaningful art, I’ll take the kitty pics the article was more or less complaining about in the opening paragraph, thanks.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

kittehs – Women are all hags by the time they’re 25, don’t you know? But men are good 4EVAS!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I want to play with that “logic” some more.

If you don’t think murder is OK that means you secretly want to murder people!

If you oppose torture it’s because you missed your calling as a torturer.

If you say you don’t like eating liver it’s because you’re actually Hannibal Lecter in disguise.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

On the Guitar Lesson painting, did you see the commenter who argued that it couldn’t be sexual because both of the people in the painting are female? Aw, bless, comically self-centered little straight dude.

Alice Sanguinaria
7 years ago

If you don’t think abuse is okay, it’s because you secretly like abuse!
If you don’t think killing kitties is okay, it’s because you want to kill kitties!
If you don’t think people should be forcibly sterilized, it’s because you want to forcibly sterilize people yourself!

Man this logic is weird.

kittehserf
7 years ago

Cassandra – yeah, I saw that. Presumably het dude who’s never fantasised about two women together.

I’d never heard of Balthus before, and that painting is seriously one of the most revolting things I’ve seen for a while. I do NOT want to see more of his stuff – feckit, this guy’s got so much creepiness sloshing around it even splashes onto kitties.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

It’s not even the paintings themselves so much that are bothering me (though some of them are really creepy) as the attempts to pretend that either they’re not sexualizing children, or sexualizing children is a universal thing which only strange prudes object to.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

@Argenti, I don’t really know how any of it works, but my blogs empty and Mr M’s a games developer, so I guess we could work it out. Wanna have a bash?

Man Boobzers could perhaps be contributors and we could put them all together in one blog, what do you reckon?

kittehserf
7 years ago

It’s all three for me, with the Balthus stuff.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

@Argenti. We’ll have to have a look to understand the differences between wordpress.org and wordpress.com, but in theory wouldn’t mind paying a bit.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Ophelia — .com and .org should both allow multiple authors, so that wouldn’t be an issue. WP.com is more limited in what you can do, because it runs off their servers, but it’s what this is run off, so either could work fine (I just want to play with .org cuz I can write PHP that way and I’m getting rusty!)

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Shorter version — both work, .org is more fun to code.

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

Hey Argenti,

Lots of questions. 🙂

Can you upgrade to .org if it goes well?

Would everybody be happy starting with my blog do you think? ‘Cause I’m a newb and a bit intimidated. 🙂

Do you think David would mind?

Also, maybe we could come up with section titles and then ask people to write something for the thing they’re most interested in?

@kitteh evenin’ 🙂

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

Have to break this smilie habit! 🙁

kittehserf
7 years ago

G’day Ophelia! 🙂

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

Hey love, we need Man Boobz mag ideas.

MAN BOOBZ NEEDS YOU! *uses best Kitchener voice*

Also, do you think it’s a good idea?

Note, I wanted to use three smilies! But I’m weaning myself off, however I am smiling.

kittehserf
7 years ago

I think it’s a great idea but I am all out of ideas at the moment! My brain is in holiday mode. (I’m not back at work till Wednesday week. Also I have just eaten toast and cheese. This does not encourage sharp thinking.)

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

Mmmmmmm, toast and cheese…

opheliamonarch
7 years ago

You’re a history buff, so I was thinking a section on women in history! you’d be fabulous at that. 🙂

(Alright, it’s a slow process, one grin at a time.)