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a voice for men are these guys 12 years old? johntheother lying liars misogyny MRA

The Daily Beast takes on the Men’s Rights movement — and takes down A Voice for Men’s John Hembling

John Hembling, possibly lying about something
John Hembling, possibly lying about something

The bad publicity bonanza for Men’s Rights activists continues — and it couldn’t happen to a worse group of  people.

Yesterday, the Daily Beast published a long-awaited piece on the Men’s Rights movement, and it’s a doozy. If you’re a regular reader of this site, trust me, you’ll want to read the whole thing, like now. The piece, by R. Tod Kelly, is long — some 6000 words — but worth it.

It’s mostly on the money, but with a few notable flaws.

Here’s what it gets right:

1) It captures the pervasive misogyny of the Men’s Rights movement in general, and of A Voice for Men in particular.

2) In an extended section, it profiles AVFM’s John Hembling, and tears apart some of his most blatant lies — including the now legendary box-cutter incident, in which Hembling claims to have stared down a mob of 20-30 feminists brandishing boxcutters.

As Kelly notes:

Vancouver police records show that there was indeed an altercation in September of 2012 between Hembling and others seeking to tear down men’s rights posters. However, according to the police, Hembling was arguing with two or three people, not being accosted by a “mob” of any size. When questioned by the authorities, neither Hembling nor witnesses mentioned seeing any weapons. …

Curiously enough, Hembling actually videotaped the events and had his AV4M Radio partner Karen Straughan post it online. The discussion with the police has been conveniently edited out, but the rest of the video clearly matches police records and not Hembling’s story. There are only a few young men taking down Hembling’s posters, and the video shows them choosing to ignore him except when he engages them in conversation. One of the men is seen using a box cutter to take down the flyers, but at no time does he use it as a weapon, raise his voice, or threaten Hembling in any way.

Kelly found some troubling, er, discrepancies in another story told by Hembling. Kelly writes:

According to Hembling, sometime around 1995 he was on his way home at 2:00 am after working a night shift when he came upon [a sexual] assault in progress. He says he used his steel-toed boots as weapons to chase off the perpetrator. When the victim was too distraught to speak with him, Hembling says he contacted the police, waited until they arrived, and then quietly left without speaking to them. He says they later tracked him down at his home, where he gave a statement.

It’s hard to know whether this event actually occurred or not. There is no record—at least, not in the Vancouver police files—of Hembling being a material witness to a rape, and police blotters from that time period do not show a crime that matches Hembling’s description. However, this does not necessarily mean the event did not occur. Vancouver police did not fully computerize their data until 2002, and it is possible the police never reported the incident. Hembling claims the incident took place at a specific hospital, where he says he worked as a contractor for 18 months. The address he gives, however, is for a different hospital in a completely different part of the city. This raises the curious question of whether Hembling forget the name of the hospital he contracted with for 18 months, or whether he forget what part of the city he worked in for that same period of time. The real truth of the matter is anyone’s guess, because Hembling wouldn’t comment to The Beast on that or any other matter.

In other words: Cool story, bro.

3) Another thing the story gets right: it makes clear just how little the Men’s Rights movement does to actually help men — and how in many ways it can actually be terribly damaging to men who need real help. As Kelly writes,

the movement’s radicals might … do … immediate damage to those who most desperately need the MRM to succeed.

“When we talk about recovery from trauma and abuse, there were two things that helped me,” says Chris Anderson, executive director of the male-victim advocacy group Male Survivor and a sexual abuse survivor himself. “The first was realizing that I’m not alone; the second was hearing that recovery was possible.” Anderson is quick to dissociate himself from the men’s rights movement: “In [the MRM] people get that first message, that they’re not alone. I don’t know that they ever get the second message. And when they don’t get that second message, it turns into an endless feedback loop and eventually they say, ‘Oh my God, all of society is f**ked.’”

Indeed, Kelly writes:

It is telling to note that of the professional male-victim advocacy organizations I spoke with, every single one specifically asked that I not allow readers to think they were in any way related to the MRM.

But there are also some things that I think the article gets wrong.

1) I think it gives Men’s Rights activists way too much credit for their supposed good intentions. While there are some MRAs who do seem to be motivated at least in part by a sincere desire to help men, most of the MRAs I’ve encountered in the 3 years of doing this blog have clearly been motivated primarily by anger and hatred of feminists — and women in general. They don’t really seem to give a shit about doing anything to actually improve the lives of men — and the paucity of their accomplishments reflects this. In its relatively brief lifespan, AVFM has raised many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Has it set up any shelters or hotlines or helplines for men? Not a one.

2) It wildly exaggerates the importance of Hembling to the MRM — especially ironic given that Hembling has been more or less AWOL in recent months, producing only a few short videos and one article for AVFM.

3) It paints a picture of The Spearhead’s WF Price as a Men’s Rights “moderate.” Really? While it’s true that Price is not an AVFM-style hothead given to rants about “fucking your shit up,” his views are anything but moderate. This is a guy who thinks higher education is wasted on women, who blames the epidemic of rape in the armed forces on women, who celebrated one Mothers Day with a vicious transphobic rant, who once used the tragic death of a woman who’d just graduated from college to argue that “after 25, women are just wasting time.” He published posts on why women’s suffrage is a bad idea. Plus, have you met his commenters?

I was, however, kind of amazed to learn that Price is married … and to a feminist. No, really.

4) The article, while solidly researched, contains some small errors and simplifications that will no doubt give MRAs and others the excuse they need to dismiss the whole thing. Kelly refers to Reddit subreddits as Reddit “threads!” He refers to Matt Forney as an MRA! Oh no!

Still, whatever its flaws, this is an important piece, and one that tells a lot of truth about the Men’s Rights movement. Again — go read it!

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Marie
Marie
11 years ago

@ahostileworld

Owwwww. Plz stop making me facepalm, it’s not nice.

Also, since this threads already been derailed to hell: your reasoning for social sciences not being real sciences?

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

PS – it’s ‘disinterested party’ not ‘uninterested’

I dunno… I’ve seen some pretty bored-looking survey mods…

sparky
sparky
11 years ago

ahostileworld: You are indeed making a claim that needs tested:

1. There is no rape culture.

2. Speaking of rape culture does not help rape victims.

I am not convinced that either one of you claims are true.
Provide evidence. Otherwise, you’re talking out your ass.

You have also not provided any evidence that contradicts the studies we have linked too. You haven’t addressed any of it, either, just disappeared for a while when things got too hot and then reappeared and changed the subject.

So I’m waiting.

Where’s your evidence?

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

Athywren – hypothetically, this is altogether possible. What is required here is a double-blind survey of one or several rape victims and their opinions about the usefulness (or lack thereof) of the term rape culture.

The term is irrelevant. Kill that crocoduck. What is helpful is the discussion of the phenomenon that the term maps to.

ahostileworld
11 years ago

dustydeste, I am very sorry, but I simply do not find you or your approach interesting enough to engage. Though your sense of entitlement may be enormous enough for you to get in a huff when somebody you want to talk to finds you dull and moves on, at the end of the day, everyone will not find you interesting all of the time. This existence isn’t all sunrays and afternoon picnics, and sometimes a person will simply not want to talk to you.

SittieKitty
11 years ago

SittieKitty, those links are not the issue at hand at this point.

Wut? They’re the evidence to the claim that rape culture exists. Which is the counter to your claim that it doesn’t. How are they not the issue at hand?

Here, I’ll break it down into little words:

ahw: [makes claim] Rape culture does not exist.

mbzrs: [counter] You are wrong. Here is proof.

ahw: No. [provides no reason why]

That’s not how dismissing evidence works. You have to provide a legitimate reason why the evidence is being dismissed. Otherwise the evidence stands. Geez, how pathetic are you really? Like, I’m ashamed for you at this point. Or I would be, if you weren’t so pathetic that I mostly just feel sorry for you.

And, you can’t do a study like that double blind. Double blind is the gold star standard but it’s literally impossible when the participants and questioners know anything about the facts in question. Which is what asking questions is, because you have to have grasp of language and concepts in order to answer. Like “Has knowledge of rape culture helped you as a victim?” requires the participant to know a) what rape culture is and what b) being helped is.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Yep, psychology isn’t a real science, that’s it, I’m sure. So, mental disorders are caused by demons? That was the leading theory before psychology.

Grah I’m gonna derail him, but as a psych major and psych case, that one irks me.

sparky
sparky
11 years ago

Also, provide evidence of your claim that social sciences “aren’t really sciences.”

Marie
Marie
11 years ago

Though your sense of entitlement may be enormous enough for you to get in a huff when somebody you want to talk to finds you dull and moves on, at the end of the day, everyone will not find you interesting all of the time.

‘sense of entitlement’? Ow, ow, the irony, it hurts.

sparky
sparky
11 years ago

auggzillary: Yep. Wanna lay odds on that?

ahostileworld
11 years ago

Oh dear, you really are having considerable difficulties understanding the concept ‘burden of proof’.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

More than that. Double blind requires the subject to not know if they are the control group. So if your groups are people who have // have not heard the term before, you’d need them to not know whether they had. If your groups are rape victims and people who haven’t been raped, you’d need the rape victims to not know they were raped. It’s impossible

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

Well here’s the problem: social sciences are not really sciences. *sigh* all of that tax payers’ money down a bottomless toilet of buzzwords and political propaganda.

No, homeopathy isn’t really science. Social sciences, however, are sciences that deal with social issues. The fact that you can’t treat a person as a point particle doesn’t change the fact that it’s possible to learn about them using decent methodology.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Burden of proof? You mean that thing that says you have to prove your claim that it hasn’t helped anyone?

katz
11 years ago

If I had a penny for every time ahostileworld had directly addressed dustydeste to tell zir that he wasn’t going to reply to zir…

ahostileworld
11 years ago

No you’d need the rape victims to not know they are in a control group, is all.

opheliamonarch
11 years ago

Alright, been canoodling with my mister. In 36 hours I’ve seen him for two 🙁

I see the hostile stream of piss is STILL HERE,

Hostile you’re a fuckhead, answer dustydeste wankwit!

Haven’t caught up yet, but:

@baileyrenee

Hostile, darling, are you okay? You’ve been on a site where nobody likes you for an awfully long time, and it can’t be healthy to enjoy that. Wanna talk about what drives you to stay here? Is it simply that the first topics you brought up got smashed so badly that you desperately need to “win” at something, anything, so you will stay until you get the last word (you won’t BTW), or are you numb to the world and you feel feelings again being on here? Or are you just a bored prick with a dreary life and this sad attempt at whatever-the-fuck is the only thing you are capable of doing for fun?

^This, this, this ^

Trouble is he’s spent 36 years with himself, that’s got to be tough!

*Crosses fingers for blockquotes*

ahostileworld
11 years ago

As I said, tremendous difficulties.

katz
11 years ago

Well here’s the problem: social sciences are not really sciences. *sigh* all of that tax payers’ money down a bottomless toilet of buzzwords and political propaganda.

So you’ve spent this whole time asking people to prove something that you have already decided can’t be proven?

Marie
Marie
11 years ago

Oh dear, you really are having considerable difficulties understanding the concept ‘burden of proof’.

::Headdesk::

Have fun with the troll, guys. I’m gonna be hanging out with my mom :3 (before she goes to bed. Early birds are weird :p)

sparky
sparky
11 years ago

No bubelah, this was decided yesterday: You have the burden of proof as you are making the assertions.

You have not addressed any of the evidence we have provided.

I can only conclude, you have nothing.

You lose.

katz
11 years ago

Ahostileworld, I still want to know why you don’t think rape is sometimes acceptable, since murder and arson are.

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

No you’d need the rape victims to not know they are in a control group, is all.

So… either they’d need to forget they’d been raped, or you just never address the question you set out to answer. What an excellent and useful test that would be.

Anyways, I got myself some new KSP parts to play with… gonna see if I can get a satellite into a synchronous orbit before I sleep. Enjoy the cargo cultist, peoples.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
11 years ago

Wait a second – in order for rape victims to exist, there must be a rapist

Nobody can be a rapist, unless they have been tried and convicted

Therefore panels of randomly selected jurors are a necessary part the scientific method, since they are the only people who can definitively separate ‘rapists’ from ‘non rapists’

Trained social scientists aren’t scientists, jurors are

Alles klar?

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