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a voice for men are these guys 12 years old? johntheother lying liars misogyny MRA

The Daily Beast takes on the Men’s Rights movement — and takes down A Voice for Men’s John Hembling

John Hembling, possibly lying about something
John Hembling, possibly lying about something

The bad publicity bonanza for Men’s Rights activists continues — and it couldn’t happen to a worse group of  people.

Yesterday, the Daily Beast published a long-awaited piece on the Men’s Rights movement, and it’s a doozy. If you’re a regular reader of this site, trust me, you’ll want to read the whole thing, like now. The piece, by R. Tod Kelly, is long — some 6000 words — but worth it.

It’s mostly on the money, but with a few notable flaws.

Here’s what it gets right:

1) It captures the pervasive misogyny of the Men’s Rights movement in general, and of A Voice for Men in particular.

2) In an extended section, it profiles AVFM’s John Hembling, and tears apart some of his most blatant lies — including the now legendary box-cutter incident, in which Hembling claims to have stared down a mob of 20-30 feminists brandishing boxcutters.

As Kelly notes:

Vancouver police records show that there was indeed an altercation in September of 2012 between Hembling and others seeking to tear down men’s rights posters. However, according to the police, Hembling was arguing with two or three people, not being accosted by a “mob” of any size. When questioned by the authorities, neither Hembling nor witnesses mentioned seeing any weapons. …

Curiously enough, Hembling actually videotaped the events and had his AV4M Radio partner Karen Straughan post it online. The discussion with the police has been conveniently edited out, but the rest of the video clearly matches police records and not Hembling’s story. There are only a few young men taking down Hembling’s posters, and the video shows them choosing to ignore him except when he engages them in conversation. One of the men is seen using a box cutter to take down the flyers, but at no time does he use it as a weapon, raise his voice, or threaten Hembling in any way.

Kelly found some troubling, er, discrepancies in another story told by Hembling. Kelly writes:

According to Hembling, sometime around 1995 he was on his way home at 2:00 am after working a night shift when he came upon [a sexual] assault in progress. He says he used his steel-toed boots as weapons to chase off the perpetrator. When the victim was too distraught to speak with him, Hembling says he contacted the police, waited until they arrived, and then quietly left without speaking to them. He says they later tracked him down at his home, where he gave a statement.

It’s hard to know whether this event actually occurred or not. There is no record—at least, not in the Vancouver police files—of Hembling being a material witness to a rape, and police blotters from that time period do not show a crime that matches Hembling’s description. However, this does not necessarily mean the event did not occur. Vancouver police did not fully computerize their data until 2002, and it is possible the police never reported the incident. Hembling claims the incident took place at a specific hospital, where he says he worked as a contractor for 18 months. The address he gives, however, is for a different hospital in a completely different part of the city. This raises the curious question of whether Hembling forget the name of the hospital he contracted with for 18 months, or whether he forget what part of the city he worked in for that same period of time. The real truth of the matter is anyone’s guess, because Hembling wouldn’t comment to The Beast on that or any other matter.

In other words: Cool story, bro.

3) Another thing the story gets right: it makes clear just how little the Men’s Rights movement does to actually help men — and how in many ways it can actually be terribly damaging to men who need real help. As Kelly writes,

the movement’s radicals might … do … immediate damage to those who most desperately need the MRM to succeed.

“When we talk about recovery from trauma and abuse, there were two things that helped me,” says Chris Anderson, executive director of the male-victim advocacy group Male Survivor and a sexual abuse survivor himself. “The first was realizing that I’m not alone; the second was hearing that recovery was possible.” Anderson is quick to dissociate himself from the men’s rights movement: “In [the MRM] people get that first message, that they’re not alone. I don’t know that they ever get the second message. And when they don’t get that second message, it turns into an endless feedback loop and eventually they say, ‘Oh my God, all of society is f**ked.’”

Indeed, Kelly writes:

It is telling to note that of the professional male-victim advocacy organizations I spoke with, every single one specifically asked that I not allow readers to think they were in any way related to the MRM.

But there are also some things that I think the article gets wrong.

1) I think it gives Men’s Rights activists way too much credit for their supposed good intentions. While there are some MRAs who do seem to be motivated at least in part by a sincere desire to help men, most of the MRAs I’ve encountered in the 3 years of doing this blog have clearly been motivated primarily by anger and hatred of feminists — and women in general. They don’t really seem to give a shit about doing anything to actually improve the lives of men — and the paucity of their accomplishments reflects this. In its relatively brief lifespan, AVFM has raised many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Has it set up any shelters or hotlines or helplines for men? Not a one.

2) It wildly exaggerates the importance of Hembling to the MRM — especially ironic given that Hembling has been more or less AWOL in recent months, producing only a few short videos and one article for AVFM.

3) It paints a picture of The Spearhead’s WF Price as a Men’s Rights “moderate.” Really? While it’s true that Price is not an AVFM-style hothead given to rants about “fucking your shit up,” his views are anything but moderate. This is a guy who thinks higher education is wasted on women, who blames the epidemic of rape in the armed forces on women, who celebrated one Mothers Day with a vicious transphobic rant, who once used the tragic death of a woman who’d just graduated from college to argue that “after 25, women are just wasting time.” He published posts on why women’s suffrage is a bad idea. Plus, have you met his commenters?

I was, however, kind of amazed to learn that Price is married … and to a feminist. No, really.

4) The article, while solidly researched, contains some small errors and simplifications that will no doubt give MRAs and others the excuse they need to dismiss the whole thing. Kelly refers to Reddit subreddits as Reddit “threads!” He refers to Matt Forney as an MRA! Oh no!

Still, whatever its flaws, this is an important piece, and one that tells a lot of truth about the Men’s Rights movement. Again — go read it!

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Alice Sanguinaria
11 years ago

WTF my comment with links disappeared. 🙁

Also, biochemistry ain’t STEM anymore? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

ahostileworld
11 years ago

All the ‘evidence’ I have seen is the following:

1.) Rape happens
2.) It is neither particularly rare nor particularly common.
3.) There are people (not clear how many) who seek to justify rape.

Now is there are single crime out there that does not fulfil those exact same criteria?

inurashii
inurashii
11 years ago

OH DUDE THEY THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF GOD, NOT RAPE CULTURE

omfg this is amaaaaazing just how out of touch do you have to even BE to just do that

Marie
11 years ago

@ahostileworld

Follow the liiiinnnnkkkkksssss. That argent kindly posted for you? That link to studies?

And don’t come back until you do your reading.

Alice Sanguinaria
11 years ago

Also, Asshole McGee, we know you have eyes. We know you can see things. Your willful ignorance of anything we say doesn’t make you look smart. And it doesn’t make your University of Google degree look any more prestigious. 😉

inurashii
inurashii
11 years ago

hostiley you are too much

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
11 years ago

You have not. You just have not. You like your own imaginary friend better than other people’s imaginary friends, but it is still just that: an imaginary friend.

Google Scholar is our imaginary friend?

You’ve been offered both scholarly works and anecdotal reports from, you know, actual real people who have been raped and explained how the myths, misconceptions and deliberate obfuscations that fall under the rubric of rape culture have affected their lives.

You know that you are not in fact living in the Matrix and that there are in fact real people on the other end of teh interweb machine, right? I know it must be hard to hear through the rustling of the straw feminists in your head, but there are real people out here with real lives and real experiences which, though they may differ from your own, are nonetheless valid.

Athywren
Athywren
11 years ago

You have not. You just have not. You like your own imaginary friend better than other people’s imaginary friends, but it is still just that: an imaginary friend.

“It’s still a cat, it’s still a cat, it’s still a cat, it’s still a cat, it’s still a cat, it’s still a cat, it’s still a cat, it’s still a cat, it’s still a cat, it’s still a cat, it’s still a cat.
LALALALALALALALALALALA!
YOU CAN’T MAKE ME BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION!”

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
11 years ago

You have been offered evidence, sweetcheeks. Lots of it. ‘We aren’t theorizing about the existence of a stellar teapot but about a social force with definitive, measurable and well documented effects on the lives of real people.’

You have not. You just have not. You like your own imaginary friend better than other people’s imaginary friends, but it is still just that: an imaginary friend.

Yes.
But Fynster makes me feel good about myself, and more welcome in the world, plus it has great advice on band names

34) Better Imaginary Friend ( Super Cheery J-Pop )

I’d rather have that than a hostile world

q:

So, what specific evidence would you like? We’ll dig it up. Hell, I’ll do it. Give me some specifics for what you’ll take as my “imaginary friend”, and our “imaginary friends”, and I’ll find you the sociological, economical, psychological or socio-biological studies.

‘Course, if you’d rather continue living in a hostile world…

35) Other Imaginary Friends ( Nerdcore )

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

As, troll meltdown in progress and pecunium // sunshine isn’t back yet.

And YES WE DID.

Hell, if you actually cared to form an opinion based on more than “I disagree so it can’ the true”, then I gave you enough reading to last an hour, easy. Have fun with your reading, my little peddler of fish.

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Speaking of fish! *flails* TWELVE!! I’m getting a head count of 13 wee wittle fishies!

Alice Sanguinaria
11 years ago

Also, 1 in 6 isn’t a large enough number for you? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

*12 not 13

Nice typo

Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Hostile World, a Johnny Hollow spin off band

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
11 years ago

Yay for having a dozen little fishies!

ostara321
ostara321
11 years ago

Hmm, 1 in 6 women and 1 in 33 men is not common? Interesting.

I mean, roughly, that’s 20% of the population, including men. Back on page one or two you claimed that feminists do not want to offer help to men who suffer in the same way the try to offer help to women who suffer.

By denying that there is a culture that is extremely damaging to rape victims, you also deny the pain of male rape victims. Why would you do this, if you supposedly believe there are men who suffer and need help? How is denying the culture that would mock him for his rape, deny it happened, or imply that somehow he must have liked it or that he’s weak and therefore deserved it, helping men?

ostara321
ostara321
11 years ago

By denying this culture exists, you are essentially gaslighting victims by trying to tell them that their own experiences are wrong.

Again, how does that help men?

Marie
11 years ago

@argenti aertheri

Yay for your fishies! :3

Ally S
11 years ago

For me to accept that there is a rape culture, three criteria would have to be met:

1.) Rape would have to be common – as common an occurence as, for instance petty theft or jaywalking.

2.) At the very most, a small minority in society would be of the opinion that rape is bad or that there even is such a thing as rape.

3.) Obviously, no legislation to outlaw rape would be in existence.

As long as those criteria aren’t met, we do not live in a rape culture, but in a society where, lamentably, murder, rape, grievous bodily harm, theft and many other crimes happen.

1) The incidence of male-on-female rape is between 1/4 and 1/6 women. That’s pretty damn high, and whether it occurs as often as other crimes is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether society condones and trivializes rape. Even if the incidence of rape was very low compared to other crimes, the concept of rape culture would still be applicable to society.

2) Most people do think that whatever they understand to be rape is bad. Unfortunately, that definition of rape tends to be extremely narrow and attitudes that abet rapists and oppress victims are widespread.

3) “Obviously?” Um, no. First of all, only recently have pro-marital rape laws been abolished in 1st world nations. Second, the majority of rape victims face enormous barriers to seeking justice and often end up never reporting anything to the police. Third, just because something is outlawed doesn’t mean that there can’t be any set of cultural norms that encourages/condones/trivializes it. Sexual harassment, for instance, is widespread and often condoned even though it’s against the law.

You clearly don’t have an understanding of basic terms feminists are using in their discourse. Rape culture doesn’t mean “A society in which everyone thinks rape is totally fine, never condemned, and committed as often as or more than other crimes.” It means “A society in which rape is common, often trivialized and condoned, and sometimes even explicitly supported on a widespread level.” The latter definition is the one that feminists have always used.

If you’re going to argue about whether society has a rape culture, you should understand that rape culture actually means and show that the above criteria you have specified are necessary to determine whether society has a rape culture. You can’t just make up criteria out of thin air and expect everyone to find them important or relevant.

sparky
sparky
11 years ago

“All the ‘evidence’ I have seen is the following:

1.) Rape happens
2.) It is neither particularly rare nor particularly common.
3.) There are people (not clear how many) who seek to justify rape.

Now is there are single crime out there that does not fulfil those exact same criteria?”

1. Rape doesn’t just “happen.” It is a crime committed by one person against another person.
2. I believe others have answered this, but going with the most conservative estimates, 1 in 6 women ain’t enough victims for ya? And I believe the best estimate of male victims of rape is in 1 in 33. Still not enough victims? Tell how many people have to be raped before you thinks its a problem? Better yet, don’t answer that, I have a feeling the answers going to be scuzzy.
3. Right back at ya: How many times has a murder victim been blamed for being murdered? When someone goes to the police and says, “I’ve been robbed,” how many times to the police dismiss that claim as lying, because obviously the victim asked to be robbed in some way? Do we deconstruct what a murder victim or victim of theft was wearing or how much they were drinking or how late they were out? Does the media lament how much someone’s life has been ruined when they go to jail for murder? Are victims of theft routinely accused of lying and making stuff up, that they must have just given away their wallet to that person and now they regret it and are just making up the theft?

Nope. Rape is treated differently.

Alice Sanguinaria
11 years ago

auggziliary – It made me sad when I heard about it. I have more links regarding rape culture (I did a thread about rape culture on a forum that I used to frequently visit until the MRA infestation became to be too much).

But yeah, it sucks. 🙁

gillyrosebee
gillyrosebee
11 years ago

Because I needed one, I present you all with this fine example of inter species snorgling!

inurashii
inurashii
11 years ago

Let’s not forget that hostiley is totally a feminist. Arguing that rape culture doesn’t exist for hours is definitely a thing that a feminist does.

titianblue
titianblue
11 years ago

Witchy kitty believes love exists

http://instagram.com/p/fyNo6Al-0f/

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