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Amanda Marcotte takes down Sunshine Mary; Mary digs her hole deeper

sunshine

So Amanda Marcotte has some thoughts on Sunshine Mary’s post about feminism allegedly reducing women to nothing more than sex objects:

Why should women want the attention of men who see them as nothing more than unpaid servants and semen toilets? …

The alternative to having a hateful misogynist around who expects you to clean up after him, accept his ranting about how women are a repulsive subhuman class whose only purpose is service to men, and to masturbate him without any hope of sexual pleasure yourself is simple: Not being with such a man. As many feminists can tell you, there’s a really pleasant alternative: Men who like women and like to hang out with us and aren’t just tolerating us in exchange for sex and housework.

But what if, as manosphere men (and antifeminist women like Sunshine Mary) like to gloat, you can’t find a man?

Being alone is better than being with a man who thinks you’re part of a degraded class put here to serve him. No matter how much misogynists may rant, they can’t get around this inherent problem in their philosophy, which is that “alone” is always a superior alternative to their company.

Sunshine Mary has responded with a post that basically argues, well, but men don’t like you, you fat slutty feminists — take that!

One of the core pillars of feminism seems to be trying to control how men think about women.  We want to be seen as smart, so by fiat order we’ll command men to see us as equally intelligent.  We want to be seen as having the ability to be sexually promiscuous, so we’ll command men to hold a positive opinion of sluttery.  We want to be seen as beautiful at 200 pounds, so we’ll command men to find us hot despite our obesity.

But it doesn’t work.  Men don’t like slutty women for anything other than sex, as the last comment thread here rather conclusively proved.  Men don’t find fat women attractive.  Men don’t like bitchy, loud-mouthed mannish feminists.  Men don’t care about women’s supposed careers.  All the commands in the world will only cause men to keep their opinions quiet, but it does not change those opinions.  All the attempts in the world at resocializing men to like what feminism has turned women into will always fail because it works against the natural order of things.

Now this is just nonsensical and, you know, not true for all but a backwards and rather assholish subset of men. But it’s what follows that’s really chilling — not chilling because it reflects reality, but chilling because it suggests how punitive and self-hating Sunshine Mary’s philosophy really is.

She argues that feminists find the Manosphere “scary” because manosphere misogynists won’t do what feminists want them to do.

It is scary to imagine that men will stop doing what they are told by women to do.  It is scary to feminists in particular because, instead of being dependent on one man like I am, they are dependent on men as a group to fund them.

Men pay the majority of taxes in the United States.  Without men’s taxes, student financial aid for Women’s Studies degrees will dry up.  Without men’s taxes, baby mamas will starve.  Without men financing it, women who are being placed into corporate leadership simply as a response to affirmative action and who then quit these jobs after a year to write tear-filled articles in the Atlantic about work-life balance, demanding even more subsidies from men to ensure that women never need to suffer the consequences for their stupid choices, will cease.  I only have to manage my husband’s opinion of me in order to secure his provisioning; feminists have to control all men’s opinions of them in order to secure their provisioning.

Yep, that’s right. Sunshine Mary believes that women are incapable of taking care of themselves and so must depend, essentially, on appeasing men in order to survive. She thinks she’s lucky because she only has to appease one man, while women who actually, you know, earn a living have to appease all men. Because they’re not really earning a living. They’re just playing at earning a living because the men of the world are nice enough to humor them.

But don’t make the men mad, Sunshine Mary warns, because then you’re screwed!

And she seems rather pleased that she can make this threat from what she percieves as her position of relative security.

How fucked up is that?

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sparky
sparky
8 years ago

anonmale: “Only one statistics will suffice to proof.” Proof of what? That women really are worthless except as baby factories, unpaid domestic help and “semen toilets?” And that when feminism took away the “baby factory” and “unpaid domestic help” part, all that’s left is “semen toilets?” And you’re trying to prove this by qouting declining marriage rates? You don’t get the point of this whole post, do you?

First, marriage rates: Yes, marriage rates in the US have been declining (I can only speak of the US because that’s where I live, I can’t speak for anyone living elsewhere). According to the Pew Research Center, other reasons include people postponing marriage until later in life; the bad economy; cohabitation becoming more socially acceptable and attitudes towards marriage changing. But, so what?

Really, so what?

“No offense but if women follows the feminist that tells them to shun men for judging their sexual behavior. It’s practically down the road of no marriage.”

Yup, someone calls you a slut because of your “sexual behavior,” that says more about the namecaller than the person being called names. Name calling is the sign of a jerk. Why would anyone want to marry a jerk? That is the whole point of Amanda Marcotte’s piece; it is better to be alone than to be with someone who doesn’t respect you. Seriously.

“Less than 45pc of people ages 15-40 are married….”

Good. 15 year olds should not be getting married. In the US, when you include actual adults (18 and over) in that statistic, you get 51%.

“Guys have an idea of a wive”

That’s nice. Don’t care.

“And that’s why we refuse marriage”

Oh no! The men who think we’re good for nothing but sex, baby making and housecleaning won’t marry us! Boo-hoo-hoo!. Oh wait. Still don’t care.

“We have been evolutionary evolved to look for ‘good’ woman for millions of years.”

Citation. But really, no, you haven’t. Do you know how evolution works? Cause that makes no sense.

“But cause of the sexual liberation in the last 50 years, that model good partner and housewife is becoming a ghost.”

The ghost of Lucille Ball is going to haunt you.

And if you’re “all for women being economically productive” then you wouldn’t be whining that feminism ruined all the good housewives, now would you?

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sparky
sparky
8 years ago

And work computer does not like WordPress. Here is my citation:

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Does his wive live in a hive?

thenatfantastic
thenatfantastic
8 years ago

Poor anonmale doesn’t have a wive! But if she did, she would have a ‘hive, because it would be the 1950s and she would have been sexually and economically repressed so much that her only ticket into an adult life (live?) would have been to cater to his stupid petulant whims and all the girls were doing their hair like that.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

And one day, when it was all just too much, she would dive (under a train, to get away from him).

marinerachel
marinerachel
8 years ago

When she dumps his ass, I’ll give her a high five.

Shadow
Shadow
8 years ago

MILLIONS of years?!!!!!! o.O

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

anonmale: I hate to be the one to break it to you, but SATC was NOT a documentary.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@anonmale

No offense but if women follows the feminist that tells them to shun men for judging their sexual behaviour.

…Oooooorrr that not everyone who marries is compatible, marriage isn’t for everyone, people shouldn’t be forced into unhappy marriages, ect.

Less than 45pc of people ages 15-40 are married and getting less and less with prevalent divorce.

The horror! They’re getting divorced! And then they might even get remarried! And do it all again! Why, oh why, won’t those foolish people do what anonmale wants them to do, and live in loveless marriages for the sake of less divorces! ::faints:::

Im all for women being economically productive, just not the sex and the city persona.

Translation: I’m all for women being economically productive, just not in ways I disapprove of.

pecunium
8 years ago

anonmale: What do rates of marriage have to do with it? The real question is, “are people happier in their relationships now than in the past”?

Evidence indicates yes.

“No offense but if women follows the feminist that tells them to shun men for judging their sexual behavior. It’s practically down the road of no marriage.”

Nope. The number of stupid predicates in that sentence are boggling.

If a woman shuns men who judge her based on her sexual behavior it doesn’t lead to a lack of marriage; it leads to a disincentive to men who abuse women for having sexual urges.

It only lead to “no marriage” if men are psychologically incapable of being rational beings.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

Wait, something just became clear to me! I’ve often gotten the impression that I baffle some of the misogynist trolls on here, because they can’t fathom why I as a gay man would be a feminist. I always figured it was because, “Why should men care about feminism?” but apparently they believe the only reason one would care about the rights for others is if they want to have sex with them.

I just hope this doesn’t apply to everything, or PETA will be EVEN WORSE.

Alice Sanguinaria
8 years ago

LBT – Oh gods. O_O

BAD THOUGHTS BAD THOUGHTS BAD THOUGHTS BAD THOUGHTS.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

No offense but if women follows the feminist that tells them to shun men for judging their sexual behavior. It’s practically down the road of no marriage.

Seriously… When I was nineteen I had an emotionally abusive boyfriend who used to slut-shame me for having had sex with a number of people before him. Eventually I found the strength to break up with HIM. THANK GOD that I didn’t end up being married to that asshole (he’d talk now and again about how we’d eventually get married…).

I’m happily married now, since twelve years, to the most wonderful man in the world who doesn’t slutshame and really doesn’t care one bit about my sexual past… I much much prefer being married to him to being unmarried, but if my choices were “married to someone like former douchebag boyfriend” or “unmarried”, that’s a no-brainer.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

obesity causes health problems

Kinda late on this, but my understanding is that it really doesn’t. It’s correlated. Like, the same kinds of things can cause obesity AND other health problems, but obesity per se doesn’t really cause things. Except maybe stretch marks, some joint pain, and having to spend more on clothes.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Dvardhundspossen

I agree entirely. I am of the belief that if me and hubby break up, I’d probably be happiest single. And I find being alone far superior to being in the company of cockbites.

katz
8 years ago

Why would I want to be in a relationship with someone who judges me? You could also say that I’d have more friends if I were friends with people who stab me with knives. Yes, but how is that better?

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: katz

I think the lesson we’re supposed to take is ALL people want to stab us with knives, and that therefore our desire to not be stabbed is unreasonable and proves we’re prissy prissy princesses.

kittehserf
8 years ago

@Sugarpuss – that comment about hairiness and men was sarcasm, not male privilege. You missed the joke. I’ve read the commenter’s other comments, he’s not some MRA douchebag.

kittehserf
8 years ago

anonmale, the bog-standard misogynist who expects to be able to pass judgement on women who’ve had sex with anyone but him, but would doubtless be outraged if men were expected to be virgins on their wedding night. And of course, marriage is the only way to live, amirite? Totally doesn’t count if people live together for years, decades, lifelong, if they haven’t had the walk down the aisle, oh no.

Dipshit. I daresay his marriage rate will be 0%, because who’d be silly or desperate enough to have him?

(Cue totally true story of how anonmale’s been happily married for years to an HB10 who alternates making him sammiches with giving him blowjobs.)

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

I’m happily married to a flirt who racked up plenty of frequent fucker miles. I am totally okay with this.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

Yeah, but LBT, your husband is a MAN. Men don’t degrade with age and use the way vagin– er, the way women do.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Frequent fucker miles is an excellent phrase.

As for marriage rates, my mother’s got two sisters (my parents are first marriage for both and dear gods divorce already!) — one is married and they’re both on their second marriage, his wife died, her first husband was, I’m told, a royal piece of work, they’re quite happy these days and it’s been 30~ years; the other married her baby daddy, and ended up divorcing him and seeing how everyone still hates him over 30 years later, gonna guess that divorce was a good thing, her current beau and her have no plans to marry, despite having been together for as long as I can remember. (Pecunium, he’s the one who shares your name and confuses my mother)

My father’s family is, unsurprisingly, a royal mess. My mother’s though? Lots of happy second marriages and long term live in not-spouses. Because seriously, sometimes it plain doesn’t work out. Like, I’ve a cousin who served during the tail end of the Cold War, they had two kids but just weren’t the same after he got back, divorced, he’s now seeing (for ages now) a divorced woman, between them they’ve four teenage boys…and are all happy with this arrangement. (Oh and men don’t teach? That’s how they met, they’re both teachers)

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

That got long, sorry!

kittehserf
8 years ago

Royal piece of work? Royal mess?

Cheeky! 😉

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@Argenti aertheri

Frequent fucker miles is an excellent phrase.

Yes. Yes it is :3

Frog
Frog
8 years ago

PROJECTION!!

The personal stories of these proMRA women are very enlightening.

One admits to having had sex with at least 100x more men than me and shares her overweight pictures with the world.

SSM is so desperate for male attention she put up with her serial-adultery committed husband and is actually less arttracted to him now she longer needs to compete with other women for him. that’s one screwed up head.

When such proMRA antifeminists talk about how “women are fat and slutty” I think you’ll find that in actuality they are really only talking about themselves.

I just wish they’d go confess it to a minister and receive absolution for it (they’re both Christian btw) rather than trying to make out every other woman in the world is a worse sinner than them.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

One admits to having had sex with at least 100x more men than me and shares her overweight pictures with the world.

<_<

Frog
Frog
8 years ago

Damn it…

I left how how they are always very irate and find fault with those they perceive to be mannish loud mouthed bitches, from their male-oriented, female-unfriendly blogs. So there’s no projecting there at all either.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

@Frog I mean I think there’s a difference between calling out their hypocrisy and saying “hey, you think we’re fat and slutty? Well, you’re even more fat and slutty and that’s gross!” and I feel that your comment veered towards the second option. Like, fat people are allowed to be fat publicly.

Frog
Frog
8 years ago

@Viscaria Not my intention at all, sorry. I couldn’t care less whether someone is morbidly obese and/or works as a prostitute. What bugs me is their vociferous holier than thou attitude. And I do think they’re projecting.

Frog
Frog
8 years ago

@Viscaria what I’m trying to say, not very well I’m afraid, is that this is not about other women at all, but about their own self-loathing.

Frog
Frog
8 years ago

The MRA waged a hate campaign against me earlier this year that left me suicidal. Women like SSM were involved, I don’t know is she personally was, but others were. I guess I’m still angry at them and that comes across here. I’m sorry about. I shall shut up before I offend anyone, I really don’t mean to.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 years ago

Hey, sorry, I wasn’t ignoring you out of anger or anything. I just started my work day, that’s all. I’m glad to hear you weren’t trying to fat shame, and I’m so sorry about the abuse you’ve suffered from the MRM.

ceebarks
ceebarks
8 years ago

That sucks, Frog. I hope you are doing better now.

I think it’s easy to build yourself up on social media, paint things in ways you couldn’t possibly get away with in real life, among people who’ve lent you a twenty and still have pics of you in that horrible bathing suit you bought that one year and remember your old boyfriends and babysat your kids. 😀

Just part of the game, though I agree mras are extra, extra nasty about it. I remember when pics of Roissy came out and I was like “for real?! That’s the guy? Whatever.” He’s not even (physically) ugly, just… an ordinary dude, who built up a whole stupid cult from behind a pseudonym.

Frog
Frog
8 years ago

No problem 🙂

The only lasting ill-effect is residual paranoia of my words and actions being misunderstood online …

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The thing about Roissy and the response to him is that I think these guys think that totally ordinary dudes SHOULD be swimming in 19 year old lingerie models who want to cater to their every whim, because because they’re dudes.

kittehserf
8 years ago

Or at least, “dudes who hate women” should be swimming in lingerie models. They hate men who aren’t misogynists, after all.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The natural state of the world was that attractive young women threw themselves at any man who expressed an interest in them, and then feminism came along and ruining things by telling women that they had the right to choose who they had sex with. This was misandry. Luckily, you can make things go back to the way they were meant to be just by reciting this magic incantation and telling that hot chick at the bar that she’s not that hot really! Just send $24.95 to…

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
8 years ago

Why would I want to be in a relationship with someone who judges me? You could also say that I’d have more friends if I were friends with people who stab me with knives. Yes, but how is that better?

It is the natural state of humanity to be slowly bleeding out from a puncture wound in the gut.

Radical Parrot
8 years ago

Of course, this practice never resulted in “sluts” in the natural state of the world, as all women back then were young and beautiful before feminism came along and turned women ugly, so there were plenty of hot supermodels to go around for all men who had sex with as many women as possible while the women remained chaste and virginal. Hypergamy is totes real and comes from the fact that biofacts, argle bargle women are evil and it’s all feminism’s fault. Ipso facto, misandry.

This is apparently how Men’s Righters actually think.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

They used to kill the women once they were no longer hot, but we don’t like to talk about that. There were enough lingerie models for every man to have at least a dozen because women tried harder back then. And then, like the snake in Paradise, Andrea Dworkin appeared and tempted the women into becoming un-pretty.

Radical Parrot
8 years ago

Also, in order to have enough lingerie models for every man, they had to send other men to wars to die and keep women from fighting so they could stay home and serve as concubines to the rich and powerf… wait, wait, I mean, beta men who hadn’t taken the Red Pill fought in wars to appease the powerful matriarchy which arose as part of the feminist movement somewhere back before civilization, when men were still men and… uhh… I mean, something something misandry.

Greater Good
Greater Good
8 years ago

Now youre mixing mating competition with that ability of all human males to mate. Human males typically mate with several women in his life time. Because males don’t carry their young, there is less concern with who they mate with. Women are more choosy because they produce less offspring then men. e.g. Men can mate with 100’s of different woman and the woman is left to raise the child while women can have only 1 child every 11 or so months and with only a 25 yr window that’s 30 kids

Radical Parrot
8 years ago

Oh, I’m sorry, did you say something, Greater Good? All I heard was “blah blah evopsych blah blah biotruths irrelevant to the issue blah look I can do math”.

SittieKitty
8 years ago

Humans typically mate with several humans in their lifetime. That’s true of all genders…

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I am so sad that I can’t have more than 30 kids! Keeps me awake at night, that, let me tell you.

pecunium
8 years ago

GG: Now youre mixing mating competition with that ability of all human males to mate.

That’s what mating competition is: the ability of a male in a species to gain the willingness of a female of that species to have sex with him.

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

I kept scrolling up to try to figure out the context for what greater grood was talking about and for some reason I just couldn’t find it

sparky
sparky
8 years ago

I am also confounded, inurashii.

My theory is Greater Good is just spewing randomness out zir ass.