Over in the Men’s Rights subreddit, a fella called EatsTinyBaldBabies offers this, er, insight:
It became quite clear to me some time ago that your typical woman would be fine making most men live in cages under 24/78 supervision if it meant they could feel just slightly safer about their lives. This is why feminists spend so much time lying to make them afraid.
Last I checked, he had gotten 18 upvotes for this BRAVE comment.
H/T to DancingMidgets in the AgainstMen’sRights subreddit for finding this little gem.
You know, my comments might be more sense-making with a few quotes and stuff.
So apparently, #solidarityisforwhitewomen is a hash tag created to confront issues of racism and exclusion in feminism and feminist online spaces, which is a good thing. Just not sure what drive-by was getting at. In the US, black men do face major discrimination, especially in regards to the legal system and this is an important issue that needs to be rectified. But, I don’t know how it relates to Mr. EatsTinyBaldBabies getting all hysterical because some guy was questioned by the cops when he loitered in a kids park too long. See Chie Satonaka’s earlier post about the man shot by the police after his family called an ambulance, ze put it a lot better than I can. That man’s only “crime” was being black. (Don’t know if this should be a TW or not, but better safe than sorry and it certainly made me sick. TW: Man gets shot by police for no reason).
http://newsone.com/2735867/jack-lamar-roberson-waycross-georgia-police/
And #solidarityisforwhitewomen:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/08/22/214525023/twitter-sparks-a-serious-discussion-about-race-and-feminism
A bit off-topic . . . but someone just sent me this link as evidence that men cannot be feminists . . . and ugh . . . this really upsets me. I find it near MRA-awful, I think I’m just posting it here because I need a hug after reading it. Can I have a hug? http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/06/23/if-men-want-to-help/
grumpycatisagirl: Yes, here are some hugs! Was the writer of that article for serious? I thought feminism left the whole “all heterosexual sex is rape” and “no men allowed because men will automatically take over the show because we little delicate scared womenz just can’t feel safe and speak up in a man’s presence” things in the dust a long time ago!
And here’s a chihuahua protecting some kittens:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vnF3MUhirsQ
@grumpycatisagirl
Your first time finding radical separatist feminism? 🙂
There are parts I think are dead on.
The thing is, in this paragraph they’re talking about Hugo. Fucking. Schwyzer syndrome here, and they’re not wrong.
The kneejerk respect given to men who declare themselves feminists and the way that places are given to them to speak ahead of women is a serious problem. (that sentence up there could be about Hugo alone, and not the myriad of other incidents that prompted the post)
And time and time again women who were saying what HS was saying before he was saying, and were saying it better than him, didn’t get the same opportunities to speak, because all that limelight went to him.
Obviously, as a man who tries to be a feminist or ally, it’s kind of a rough hard-and-fast rule. But on the other hand, am I doing this because it’s the right thing to do, or for the cookies? Saying ‘no, I ought to be able to take leadership positions’ sounds an awful lot like cookie-seeking behavior.
Now, on the other hand, this…
Well, yanno. If they don’t want to have anything to do with me, that’s their right. So I don’t have much else to say about that.
Yeah, that’s pretty out there, that is. I really don’t understand people who insist that all PIV sex is rape. I find it kind of personally insulting; I mean, I like PIV, I’m an adult – are you really asserting that I, a grown-ass woman, am unable to consent to sex that I like and desire? That seems… kind of infantilizing and ridiculous. Besides which the rest of that screed was pretty off-the-mark.
*Offers hug & coconut tea cake*
Thanks for the hugs! I understand the problems with Hugo Schwyzer and his ilk, and yeah, those are real problems, but I don’t think pushing all men away from feminism is any way shape, or form, the answer to the problem. I just get pissed off at any kind of exclusionary thinking, I guess. And also the PIV sex is rape, thing . . . I mean . . . besides dustydeste’s point that I am a grown woman who enjoys PIV with the right male partner . . . are you telling me the whole reason I exist is that my dad is a monster who violently raped my mother? No. No. No.
WRT that stupid radfem:
On the one hand, I’ve been fed the “oppressed groups can’t accomplish anything without the oppressors’ help!” line enough to be cautious about men’s involvement.
But on the other hand, if men aren’t even allowed to quietly agree with feminists, wtf is she even trying to accomplish? Because even ideally, half the population would never be on her side, so she’d never really be able to get shit done. Is she planning on splitting the country like Antz?
Also, way to be all like “give us money and land and stuff.” Not just “pay us equally, give us equal opportunities,” but literally “men should give women stuff just because they are women.” I’m not saying she’s an MRA Poe, but this is literally exactly how an MRA thinks women act.
FFS, this isn’t even what Andrea Dworkin was saying.
grumpycatisagirl, I have some pumpkin oatmeal cookies here. Would you like one?
Hugs + a dog beginning to wonder about the new puppy.
So I read not only that radfem screed (which, as Howard notes, has some key truths worthy of discussion and rectification, that it then builds on deep into Weirdsville), but also the comments, wherein the author notes that one additional reason not to let men into feminism is because our secret agenda is to learn about women in order to better manipulate them, and therefore, no woman should ever give radfem materials to men.
Which makes me suspect she doesn’t know how the internet works, since she’s putting all of this out on public display.
Pumpkin oatmeal cookies sound way delicious!
And what Katz said:
“I’m not saying she’s an MRA Poe, but this is literally exactly how an MRA thinks women act.”
Another reason this upset me. Way to be all in cahoots, really.
Reason #302 (it’s a happy prime!) why I am not comfortable with “men have no place in feminism”…gender binary much? Whether I think gender should be a determining factor in pay, want to fix the issues with DV responses and rape culture etc etc, shouldn’t be dependent upon the anatomy of my genitals.
Hugo. Fucking. Schwyzer. Syndrome is definitely a problem, but that’s no reason to say that (cis) women are the only ones “allowed” to be feminists. Just that people with experience in sexism get to do the talking and those without to the STFU&L(isten) and then repeat, with motherfucking credit (unless it’s a widespread idea?), what those people say and want.
I mean, this is kinda how being an ally works — you don’t get center stage, you don’t make yourself into a leader, you defer to those with personal experience, and, when possible, you teach others what they’ve said and work to help them achieve their goals. This really doesn’t require me to go reside on a houseboat on the Mississippi (though I do love that idea!)
Although actually my main gripe isn’t even related to feminism, radical or otherwise. It’s that she’s being disingenuous. When she tells men to give women everything they own, leave their jobs, and go live in a hole in the ground, and that’s the minimum requirement to be considered not-scum, it’s not that she expects or even wants anyone to actually do this.
What she actually wants is to be able to demonize all men everywhere no matter what they actually do and to blame them for everything, so she makes a ridiculous standard so she can go “See? Men aren’t doing any of this! They really are scum!”–and so she can treat other feminists as out-of-touch for not expecting men to do any of that.
Well, see, feminism has flaws, right? Now, if we read the bible and listen to Ray Comfort, we know that having ever stolen makes you an unrepentant thief, that looking at another human with lust in your heart makes you a serial adulterer, and getting annoyed makes you a mass murderer. SO! Having flaws means you’re irredeemably broken, therefore feminism is wrong. See? It’s obvious if you think about it logically.
*hug*
*quickly disinfects you of boycooties*
I can almost agree with bits of what she’s saying… almost. Certainly, I don’t think men should be the “leaders” of feminism – yes, it’s about gender equality, but it’s women who are unequal here – but not even involved? If I had never been, “integrated in any […] debates concerning women whatsoever,” I wouldn’t understand them half as well as I do now, and I wouldn’t be a feminist. I might even oppose it if the MRM had managed to get its fingers into my mind. I don’t see that being a helpful use of my time.
Obviously the Schwyzernauts are an important class to consider, and just calling yourself feminist should not grant automatic respect but… individuals, y’know? Anthony Flew became a deist, therefore philosophers cannot be atheists, right? It’s nonsense. Obviously we’re as valid a target for criticism as any other man, obviously we’re still going to occasionally fail at feminism because we’re not women and we don’t have first hand experience of the important issues. Even those of us who have faced gender-related prejudice because of mistaken identities on the internet have no experience of that as a daily fact of life, so we’re going to make mistakes. The trick is not to assume that you’re right all the time. I don’t think we should go easy on men who screw up just because we mean well – if I fuck up, feel free to rip me to shreds. I expect you to do so. In the scientific world, that’s called peer review. I’m not sure what it’s called in the social world… I guess girlwriteswank would call it owning your shit.
If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, and I can only fix that by knowing where I’m wrong and then not being wrong there any more. That’s not something denied or exclusive to men, it’s just skepticism 101. Schwyzer doesn’t represent men’s ability to reflect upon and improve themselves any more than Paul Elam does
And “the illusion that men can, after all, be nice and care about women”? Well, I do at least understand where some MRAs get their information about feminism now. We can be “nice,” and we can care. That many of us fail or refuse to do so is not an argument against men’s inherent decency, but one in favour of the necessity of feminism.
Only one other thing to ramble on endlessly about… what does she mean when she says, “Stop sticking your dicks in women. This is rape. This is torture.”? Does she mean that every occurrence of a penis in a woman is rape, or is she implying non-consensual placement with that particular phrasing? If it’s the former… sorry, no, you don’t get to dictate to me or any future partners of mine what I do or do not do with my own and their genitals with mutual consent. If it’s the latter, absolutely, agreed. But I’m not going to stay away from feminism, not because I’m enjoying the shower of cookies too much to give it up, but because it’s necessary.
So… yeah. *hug*
The grumpiness must be infectious and able to cross from cat to human, ‘cuz I’m a bit grumpy now, too. And, uh, sorry if I’m stealing the limelight by writing so much… I suck at concision.
Good grief, what an article.
She has a point about land, because while the majority of agricultural work around the world is done by women, men own something like 95% of the land. But other than that …
Adding to the comments about PiV everyone’s made already, plus does she want humans to stop breeding? Hello, IVF is not available to most people in the world. She’s also going to have to fix societies that are so poor and so lacking in an organised social safety net that having children is your only hope of having support in your old age. (Thinks: just like the Republicans want for the US.)
On a purely personal level: way to erase the millions of people who’ve had loving male-female relationships that include PiV. Way to erase the women who seek PiV. Way to completely fail to understand sexual desire and arousal, for that matter. (She’s being as stupid as that radfem who said that it’s unnatural for a penis to go into a vagina, ‘cos a vagina is only for pushing out babies. No, really.)
Ya know, I’m not exactly fond of PiV myself, but I’m gonna go out on a limb here and guess that there are no small number of people with vaginas who enjoy having a penis in them under the right circumstances. And to refuse that because sorry dear, I’m oppressing you by fulfilling your sexual desires? Not helping women!
I have a real sore spot for radfems in general, not just TERfs, because they always come off as “poor dear, someday you’ll realize how you only enjoy [thing] because of patriarchy and that doing [thing] is just furthering your oppression”. And I’ve seen everything from PiV to wearing skirts treated this way!
Also, how is impregnanting someone who wants to make a baby torture? Cuz my paych’s receptionist just got back from maternity leave and she is over the fucking moon and has been since it became common knowledge that she was expecting (little girl, mom and baby are both doing well)
And of course the “spill the beans” bit: “Men must tell us their secret evil plans! What, you claim you don’t have any secret evil plans? See, all men are liars!”
We also recently discovered that FEMEN was being run by a man. So there’s another example of how feminism can be co-opted by men for their own purposes.
Now there’s an unusual kink – cookie crumbs down the back of the collar.
(BISCUIT crumbs. Damn US linguistic imperialism mumblegrumblegrouch.)
It’s bad enough having to keep men in cages and clean up after ’em without adding spilled beans to the equation. Especially if we’re talking baked beans in tomato sauce. Eww.
…shit, now I really want to go over there and mention that they’re leaving all that stuff open for me to read, but then it’s my fault for being a man invading a female space and proving I can never be a good feminist ally, right?
Dangit! Catch-22!
@Athywren
There’s also a problem of entitlement. Men are socialized to believe that they’re supposed to be the center of any movement they’re in. Deprogramming that whole thing might just involve purposefully saying ‘no, you shouldn’t be the center of this movement, you should only support it.’
I mean, flip that whole screed around; if all sex WAS rape, which would be more important to me; having sex, or not raping anybody?
(hint: it’s the rape one)
Biscuits and cookies are two [slightly] different kinds of confectionery! Biscuits are more uniform in shape and are usually plain, have a chocolate covered bum or a sandwiched layer of something tasty. Cookies are more ragged around the edges and usually have chocolate chips or fruit pieces dotted around the place pretty randomly. The cookie “flesh” is usually a little sweeter than the biscuit “flesh” too.
No, I don’t know why the only word I can think of to describe that part is flesh either… I’m having a word-fail evening.
Kittehs, I want you to make a “cat anger consequences” meme out of this image.