So the self-described “human rights activists” at A Voice for Men have found three more women to harass. Here’s the story, which for many of you will have a depressingly familiar ring:
Members of Men’s Rights Edmonton, a small group that is for all intents and purposes a local chapter of A Voice for Men, has been putting up pictures targeting Lise Gotell, the chair of women’s and gender studies at the University of Alberta. The pictures, which seem inspired by “Wanted” posters of yore, feature a large portrait of Gotell and the caption:
Theft isn’t black. Bank fraud isn’t Jewish. And rape isn’t male.
“Just because you’re paid to demonize men doesn’t mean rape is gendered. Don’t be that bigot.
Gotell’s crime? She was involved in what appears to have been a remarkably effective rape awareness campaign focusing on date rape and featuring the slogan “Don’t Be That Guy.”
A Voice for Men took exception to the campaign because, even thought it did deal with the male victims of rape, it didn’t devote equal time to the problem of evil, false-accusing “girls.” No, really. Men’s Rights Edmonton Activists put up “satirical” versions of the campaign’s posters with the slogan “Don’t Be that Girl.” Now, MR-E and AVFM, at least according to the “argument” advanced on their new poster, seem to be upset that the campaign didn’t devote equal time to the problem of female rapists. [Note: this paragraph has been corrected; see note at end of piece.]
Gotell spoke out against the posters, and now Men’s Rights Edmonton and AVFM are doing their best to smear her as a “bigot.” Because she doesn’t believe that women are responsible for half of all rapes.
Since this is not actually true — more on this in a later post — it’s hard to see how this makes her a bigot.
As a rule, I don’t support tearing down the posters of one’s ideological enemies. Free speech and all that. But these posters are different: they’re slanderous personal attacks designed to harass an individual. Were they posted in my neighborhood I would tear them down.
And evidently that’s what some people in Edmonton have been doing.
Indeed, one recent night, several members of Men’s Rights Edmonton claim to have caught two women doing just that. While they don’t seem to have video footage of the women tearing down the posters, the MRAs filmed themselves following the women down the street and angrily confronting them for this alleged crime.
They posted the video to YouTube, and AVFM posted it as well, under the typically overheated title “Men’s Rights Edmonton confronts fascists.” They screencapped images of both women from the video and announced their intention to uncover their personal information:
MR-E would like to know the names of these two women so that charges of destruction of property can be laid against them. Also, the world should know the identities of those who seek to silence and censor messages advocating for human rights.
Of course, this is ridiculous. Tearing down a poster that was almost certainly posted illegally in the first place isn’t “destruction of property.” No one is going to be prosecuted for this. The police have better things to do.
But of course that’s not the real intent here. The real intent here is to scare the shit out of these women and other feminists by exposing them to harassment online — like the woman labeled “Big Red” and countless other women who have been targeted by AVFM and other MRAs (sometimes completely erroneously).
AVFM’s Paul Elam gave the game away with an “editor’s note” added to the post:
[A] woman who vandalizes man’s property and then flips him off when he confronts her about it on a dark street at night only acts in this manner because she is certain she has absolutely nothing to fear. Feminists terrified of MHRAs? My ass.
Elam could not have made it any clearer: the main point of this kind of “activism” — which has become AVFM’s bread and butter — is all about intimidating women, not helping men.
AVFM, where terrifying individual women is “human rights activism.”
Here’s the appropriate response to that:
CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION: I rewrote the paragraph starting with “A Voice for Men took exception,” which confused AVRM/MR-E’s current objection to Gotell’s views with its original “argument” against the “Don’t Be That Guy” campaign.
Back @ DavidFutrelle:
This is a quote from your “article:”
—A Voice for Men took exception to the campaign because, even thought it did deal with the male victims of rape, it didn’t devote equal time to the problem of female rapists. No, really. Men’s Rights Edmonton Activists put up “satirical” versions of the campaign’s posters with the slogan “Don’t Be that Girl.”—
A. No, that is NOT why AVFM took issue with the “Don’t Be That Guy Campaign.” Again, if you’d actually read into the issue at all instead of making assumptions and drawing wildly inaccurate conclusions based on them, you’d already know that. It had absolutely nothing to do with the issue of “female rapists;” the problem was the presupposition that guys are always “this close” to raping someone and need to be reminded not to. It is insulting and bigoted to assume that men need to be “reminded not to rape.” It is exactly the same thing as “reminding black people not to steal.” The problem is the assumption of criminality based on bias. Most black people don’t steal, and most men don’t rape. I’m shocked that I have to explain this to you.
B. Once again, you’re talking out of your ass. Nowhere on AVFM does it say that “perps and victims of rape are equally male and female.” Nowhere. What it says is that MOST rape victims are men and that SOME rapists are female. You’re just making shit up at this point. Yes, it is an issue that female rapists are not recognized as such. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the campaign you’re so laughably failing to intelligently criticize.
C. I have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about, which is about right, since neither do you. Your arguments, in classic Feminist fashion, are being changed and explained away when confronted with the fact that you’re just blatantly wrong.
Please inform yourself before you “write” “articles,” you’re making yourself look really stupid.
What’s funny is that he expects “you’re not hot enough to be raped!” to hurt our feelings and/or provoke an amusing response. Like, does he think we’re going to say “I am too!”?
MRAs don’t know how to create pointed and genuinely hurtful insults because they don’t understand women well enough to know where to aim.
And I’m “shocked” that you have no fucking clue what the “don’t be that guy” posters are even about.
CassandraSays – I think I got infuriated because with that comment he just negated the experiences of many female friends of mine, as if they didn’t matter. Supposing that “oh, you don’t ever have to worry about rape, ever” erases the experience that half of the population has to face every single day.
It’s insulting, but not in the way he intended I think.
Thing is that the fact that he did manage to upset Argenti was essentially accidental – he’s too stupid to have realized that there might be any rape victims reading, he was just trying to make us cry by telling us we’re not pretty. The fact that he framed it the way he did says a lot about him, though.
Ally S – You know what I find funny? That MRAs all presume that everyone knows what rape is and what consent means. And yet when you question them about what rape, what consent is, they always get that question wrong. It’s actually pretty sad.
I mean, if people knew what consent meant, we wouldn’t NEED the “don’t be that guy” posters, because everyone know how to not rape people.
But not everyone knows that. And I think that’s why the campaign was so effective in reducing incidences of sexual assault/rape — because people were learning “wait, this isn’t acceptable, this is wrong” and they’re backing off because they’re not assholes.
First thing I noticed about my comment: grammar fail. Oops. >_<
CassandraSays – It does. Then again, he seems to be unable to empathize with people.
I don't think he realized why his comment was insulting either.
I read over this “article” again, at I’m actually pissed off now. At no point did you make a coherent argument, and took everything in such a stupid direction I can’t even fathom how you pulled it off.
Taking Elam’s point as “our intention is to terrify women” is literally beyond my breaking point for how much stupid I can tolerate in such a short amount of text.
Honestly Futrelle, how can you possibly call yourself a writer with a reading comprehension so abysmally low that you can’t even understand words or the arguments you’re supposedly making?
If you knew ANYTHING about the actual dialogue–which, to reiterate again, you don’t because you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about–you’d know that Feminists often claim to be “terrified” of MHRAs because “the tone is so angry it makes me a victim!!!!1111”
Elam’s point: Nobody “terrified” of someone else would even dream of committing a crime against them where everybody could see, much less in the very specific context Feminists often say is where they get “victimized,” and then act like a belligerent bully towards their “oppressors” ON CAMERA.
That is not how terrified people act, it’s how bullies act who can do whatever the fuck they want with impunity. THAT IS HIS POINT. That being “terrified” is just another bullshit way fr them to feel like perpetual victims of everything.
Nowhere is it said or implied that the intention is to terrorize women.
God, you’re a fucking idiot, Futrelle. The Feminists should be humiliated that you number yourself among them.
Says misogynist on the anniversary of Jill Meagher’s rape and murder.
As much as movement (always makes me think of poo) atheism grosses me out, the fact I don’t wish to be part of it doesn’t make me any less of an atheist.
Off-topic (well, on the topic of comics): I’m amused by this troll who pooped in the Fake Geek Girl comic on DeviantArt.
The writing section of his gallery is 100% rants about feminists, including Escher Girls. And his art is…well, this.
Before criticizing other people on DeviantArt, make sure you aren’t the world’s worst artist.
Today I have learned that if you turn towards someone who’s trailing you and give them the finger you are “bullying” them.
And to the rest of you–considering that fewer than 1 in every 2,000 Americans is raped each year, I would be shocked beyonds words if a single “woman” in this comments section was actually a victim of rape. So Jason, whoever you are, don’t feel bad about accidentally “triggering” someone who most likely didn’t know she was the victim of a violent crime until all her friends told her she was.
Hey guys did I get stabbed with a knife?
Yeah! Me too! I got stabbed too! You did!
HOLY SHIT YOU GUYS I’VE BEEN STABBED!!11! THANKS FOR CONVINCING ME!
Today I learned that MRAs have very, very thin skins when it comes to criticism.
Also, that many of them are quite deluded and are unable to comprehend “context” and “inference” and “past history” when it comes to judging a person’s words, but that was a given.
And to the rest of you engaging in your mature, adult shaming tactics in response to me: I’m just going to ignore you until you make an actual point. Call me names all you like, all it does is prove you have nothing useful to say.
I can’t see the art because I don’t have an account and I’m not going to make an account in order to see it. So, I’ll take you at your word Katz
Hey Cassandra, that was a really great way of minimizing the fact that she’d just illegally vandalized their posters. Your victim language is adorable, it really is–but it’s not “being trailed” when you’ve just destroyed someone else’s property. It’s called being accountable for your actions.
Today I have also learned that our new friend doesn’t know what the word “vandalism” means.
Well rape is a compliment dontcha know? So if anyone wants to rape you then you must be attractive. Contra, if you don’t have to worry about being raped, it means you’re, as pecunium explained it when I asked for booze and him to explain what I was saying — “a feminist and probably ugly and fat”. All of which are insults!
Even feminist!
Come on now, we all know that nobody would be turned on by some fat ugly woman in sweatpants, and thus nobody would rape her! So if I say you don’t have to worry about rape, you must be like her, and you don’t want to be like her now do you?!
/sarcasm
So yeah, not just failure at insults, but absolute terrifyingly wrong views on rape…ones that only prove why campaigns such as “don’t be that guy” are still needed. Because trust me here, having a penis, and being turned on by someone, do not require that you manage to stick said anatomy in their anatomy, nor otherwise engage in sex acts (with them, it may require you engage in sex acts with yourself, which is quite acceptable assuming you’re in private). To not manage to restrain yourself from demanding sex acts, or coercing a drunk/drugged person into sex acts, or “surprising” someone with sex acts, or failing to cease sex acts when such request is made…well, if any of that made you go “but what if!” Then you might be a fucking rapist. At best, you’re a rape apologist.
And yes, that does mean you should lock yourself away until you manage to learn how to be aroused by someone and not insist they must rectify that for you. Because you’re the one with the fucking problem!
Cuz see…most people with a penis are quite capable of refraining from putting it places it isn’t wanted. I am 100% sure of this. Those that aren’t? Tend to find excuses why what they’re doing isn’t really rape — well no, she couldn’t stand up, but she didn’t say no! DON’T BE THAT GUY! But she’d consented last night and I wanted to surprise her with wake up sex! DON’T BE THAT GUY! But I’d already started and was nearly done when she said stop, gotta let a man finish! DON’T BE THAT GUY!!
Do I need to draw a diagram? Cuz it isn’t hard. To the point pecunium and I were joking about how “it didn’t say no” when practicing with some lovely jo staffs…because “she didn’t say no” is not consent! (FTR, I started it when he said he’d need to rub the staff and I asked if he had consent for that…and, as is probably known around here, we have twisted senses of humor)
Utterly randomly, I apparently braid my hair backwards. Though this was a brief little thing, when he watched me do mine and noted I do the reverse of him [he goes under, I go over])
(Hugs Argenti)
themaskandrose, I will give you this: I misstated the “argument” of the original “don’t be that girl” posters, and have corrected that. The rest of what you say is of course complete bullshit.
Elam says: these women aren’t terrified. The implicit point: of him saying that is we need to terrify them.
He’s made clear many times that he wants to intimidate feminists into shutting up. Do you need citations?
See here for example:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/the-fembots-are-already-bent-out-of-shape/
Here I write about him targeting a woman in an attempt to “stop her” through intimidation.
http://manboobz.com/2012/12/09/mra-paul-elam-launches-a-hate-campaign-against-a-college-student-for-attending-a-demonstration-and-making-twitter-jokes/
Can you really not see Elam for what he is? Or are you as dishonest about his intentions as he is?
LOL that guy’s art … and what an idiotic comment.
I’m so glad themaskandrose knows that none of us have been raped. And that none of us have any cause to be triggered by violence. I think themaskandrose should go talk to the judge that sent my birth father to jail about how they were wrong about my birth fathers treatment of me. And tell the cops that their photos are a load of crap because themaskandrose KNOWS what really happen. After all I wouldn’t think I was a victim of a violent crime unless the cops and judge told me so. I’d be completely clueless about my PTSD because themaskandrose knows my life so much better than I do.
You know what I don’t normally cuss because I don’t think it helps with discussion and civilized discourse, but I am FUCKING DONE WITH THIS BS! I work very hard to be polite and not result to namecalling, but I just can’t right now. You want to know who is triggering asshole and thinks they know everything??? DO you know that I was told that as fucking child I was “tempting” I seduced adult fucking men. FUCK YOU! Thanks for continuing that “high level” of discourse and victim blaming. Oh, rape doesn’t have to be violent you know.
And hugs to Melody too. I’m sorry that these assholes are getting to you.
Also, every two minutes, someone is sexually assaulted in the United States. A grand total of 207,754 people are sexually assaulted a year.
There are at the moment almost 317 million people in the United States.
50.8% of them are female, according to 2010 Census Data. In 1998, one out of six women are victims of attempted or completed rape. I think this number went up to one out of five.
15% of assault victims are under 12. 29% of them are between 12-17. 80% of victims are under 30.3 years old when they were assaulted/raped.
In 1998, 17.7 million women were victims of attempted and completed rape.
Chances are, you’re talking to someone who’s a victim of sexual assault. After all, just because something has a low statistic doesn’t mean that it’s impossible.
Oh, and by the way, you’d know if you were violated without your consent. We’re not stupid.