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For A Voice for Men, and its Edmonton offshoot, terrifying women is a form of “human rights activism.”

Men's Rights Edmonton activist at work
Men’s Rights Edmonton activist at work

So the self-described “human rights activists” at A Voice for Men have found three more women to harass. Here’s the story, which for many of you will have a depressingly familiar ring:

Members of Men’s Rights Edmonton, a small group that is for all intents and purposes a local chapter of A Voice for Men, has been putting up pictures targeting Lise Gotell, the chair of women’s and gender studies at the University of Alberta. The pictures, which seem inspired by “Wanted” posters of yore, feature a large portrait of Gotell and the caption:

Theft isn’t black. Bank fraud isn’t Jewish. And rape isn’t male.

“Just because you’re paid to demonize men doesn’t mean rape is gendered. Don’t be that bigot.

Gotell’s crime? She was involved in what appears to have been a remarkably effective rape awareness campaign focusing on date rape and featuring the slogan “Don’t Be That Guy.”

A Voice for Men took exception to the campaign because, even thought it did deal with the male victims of rape, it didn’t devote equal time to the problem of evil, false-accusing “girls.” No, really. Men’s Rights Edmonton Activists put up “satirical” versions of the campaign’s posters with the slogan “Don’t Be that Girl.” Now, MR-E and AVFM, at least according to the “argument” advanced on their new poster, seem to be upset that the campaign didn’t devote equal time to the problem of female rapists.  [Note: this paragraph has been corrected; see note at end of piece.]

Gotell spoke out against the posters, and now Men’s Rights Edmonton and AVFM are doing their best to smear her as a “bigot.” Because she doesn’t believe that women are responsible for half of all rapes.

Since this is not actually true — more on this in a later post — it’s hard to see how this makes her a bigot.

As a rule, I don’t support tearing down the posters of one’s ideological enemies. Free speech and all that. But these posters are different: they’re slanderous personal attacks designed to harass an individual. Were they posted in my neighborhood I would tear them down.

And evidently that’s what some people in Edmonton have been doing.

Indeed, one recent night, several members of Men’s Rights Edmonton claim to have caught two women doing just that. While they don’t seem to have video footage of the women tearing down the posters, the MRAs filmed themselves following the women down the street and angrily confronting them for this alleged crime.

They posted the video to YouTube, and AVFM posted it as well, under the typically overheated title “Men’s Rights Edmonton confronts fascists.” They screencapped images of both women from the video and announced their intention to uncover their personal information:

MR-E would like to know the names of these two women so that charges of destruction of property can be laid against them. Also, the world should know the identities of those who seek to silence and censor messages advocating for human rights.

Of course, this is ridiculous. Tearing down a poster that was almost certainly posted illegally in the first place isn’t “destruction of property.” No one is going to be prosecuted for this. The police have better things to do.

But of course that’s not the real intent here. The real intent here is to scare the shit out of these women and other feminists by exposing them to harassment online — like the woman labeled “Big Red” and countless other women who have been targeted by AVFM and other MRAs (sometimes completely erroneously).

AVFM’s Paul Elam gave the game away with an “editor’s note” added to the post:

[A] woman who vandalizes man’s property and then flips him off when he confronts her about it on a dark street at night only acts in this manner because she is certain she has absolutely nothing to fear. Feminists terrified of MHRAs? My ass.

Elam could not have made it any clearer: the main point of this kind of “activism” — which has become AVFM’s bread and butter — is all about intimidating women, not helping men.

AVFM, where terrifying individual women is “human rights activism.”

Here’s the appropriate response to that:

edmontonfingerPN

CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION: I rewrote the paragraph starting with “A Voice for Men took exception,” which confused AVRM/MR-E’s current objection to Gotell’s views with its original “argument” against the “Don’t Be That Guy” campaign.

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Alice Sanguinaria
11 years ago

Unless Cliff has stated that we should use gender-neutral pronouns, in which case I apologize.

Jason
Jason
11 years ago

They are not the same thing because the original was about how men, in a patriarchal society, often feel entitled to women’s bodies.

Men don’t. Most men work hard to get the attention of women consensually. Entitlement is wanting something for nothing.

It’s men freaking out when women don’t respond by going out with them when what they do is “nice” because they think basic kindness should get them sex.

This is why we need a men’s movement – because you feminists are absolutely horrible at speaking for us men.

It’s girls being passed out at a party and boys thinking that means they can rape them. It’s people who see that saying “well, i don’t agree with what they did, but you can’t be so drunk” or “you’re wearing too skimpy clothing they can’t help themselves” or “boys will be boys what did you expect?”

Most men would never rape a drunk girl covered in her own bodily fluids at a party. Most men want lots of sex – and they want it consensually. Most men would look down on a rapist as a loser who can’t get laid the normal way. Rapists tend to be a small subsection of men, who are responsible for many other incidences of violence, who know what they’re doing is wrong, and who do it over and over. It’s not a normal thing that guys do. It’s something a few narcissistic sociopaths do. But those types are out there. You won’t convince them not to rape with a poster. They’ll just laugh. All “Don’t be that guy” will do is stigmatize normal men. It won’t stop a single rape. If rapists were normal men, I’d support reasoning with them and trying to get them to stop. But they aren’t. So even though it’s entirely the fault of the rapists, we should be teaching women to protect themselves, and to report their rapists, if we actually want to stop sexual assaults from happening.

NOBODY SAYS THAT FOR FEMALE RAPISTS.

Because nobody even talks about female rapists, least of all you feminists?

Marie
11 years ago

@jason

cute. please actually respond to the links I left you.

Ps, why isn’t the mrm talking about female rapists? Instead they talk about false rape accusations, which rarely happen.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

This is why we need a men’s movement – because you feminists are absolutely horrible at speaking for us men.

What exactly do you think feminism is for, dipshit? Way to miss the point.

chibigodzilla
11 years ago

Rapists tend to be a small subsection of men, who are responsible for many other incidences of violence, who know what they’re doing is wrong, and who do it over and over.

You got a citation for that?

cloudiah
11 years ago

I’m going to say again that I am very glad that civil rights activists 20th century didn’t just say, “Well, lynchings are just things that really bad people do; everyone else knows how bad lynching is, so there’s no point in campaigning or trying to do something about it. Lynchers will just laugh at that! It won’t stop a single lynching.”

And um, feminists are the ones saying that consent is important for everybody, including men. Which kind of means we DO acknowledge the existence of female rapists?

Fade
11 years ago

Most men would never rape a drunk girl covered in her own bodily fluids at a party.

Most men wouldn’t. 1 in 20 would. and then people would BLAME THE VICTIMS.

The thing isn’t saying all men are rapists. It’s saying SOME are and some people help them by perpetuating rape culture.

You won’t convince them not to rape with a poster.

No, you won’t, but you might help stop attitudes of rape culture.

grumpycatisagirl
grumpycatisagirl
11 years ago

“They’ll just laugh. All “Don’t be that guy” will do is stigmatize normal men. It won’t stop a single rape.”

I am beyond sick and tired of dudes saying that while ignoring this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/dont-be-that-guy-ad-campaign-cuts-vancouver-sex-assaults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article1359241/

Howard Bannister
11 years ago

This is why we need a men’s movement – because you feminists are absolutely horrible at speaking for us men.

This is why we don’t need a men’s movement. Because MRAs pour shit over everything.

And please don’t pretend you’re speaking for me. The things you say horrify me. You’re not speaking for men, you’re speaking for you.

cloudiah
11 years ago

^^ “activists in the 20th” ^^

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

SO MUCH WRONG:

Most men would never rape a drunk girl covered in her own bodily fluids at a party. Most men want lots of sex – and they want it consensually. Most men would look down on a rapist as a loser who can’t get laid the normal way. Rapists tend to be a small subsection of men, who are responsible for many other incidences of violence, who know what they’re doing is wrong, and who do it over and over. It’s not a normal thing that guys do. It’s something a few narcissistic sociopaths do. But those types are out there. You won’t convince them not to rape with a poster. They’ll just laugh. All “Don’t be that guy” will do is stigmatize normal men. It won’t stop a single rape. If rapists were normal men, I’d support reasoning with them and trying to get them to stop. But they aren’t. So even though it’s entirely the fault of the rapists, we should be teaching women to protect themselves, and to report their rapists, if we actually want to stop sexual assaults from happening.

No, rapists are just regular dudes, stop it right now with the “they are mentally ill” shit.

Normal (whatever that is) men rape.

While you’re giving out helpful hints to women and making them report their rapes, maybe you can tell the cops and the judicial system to give a fuck. You make it sound so easy.

Or you can fuck off.

Howard Bannister
11 years ago

@chibigodzilla:

A source?

Meet the Predators.

About self-confessed rapists.

The relevant bit:

Lisak & Miller also answered their other question: are rapists responsible for more violence generally? Yes. The surveys covered other violent acts, such as slapping or choking an intimate partner, physically or sexually abusing a child, and sexual assaults other than attempted or completed rapes. In the realm of being partner- and child-beating monsters, the repeat rapists really stood out. These 76 men, just 4% of the sample, were responsible for 28% of the reported violence. The whole sample of almost 1900 men reported just under 4000 violent acts, but this 4% of recidivist rapists results in over 1000 of those violent acts.

If we could eliminate the men who rape again and again and again, a quarter of the violence against women and children would disappear. That’s the public policy implication.

Fade
11 years ago

@Jason

not to mention, the sad thing about rape is that rapists lives are ruined. Societal attitudes about rape a freaking problem.

Howard Bannister
11 years ago

But everything Thomas writes about Lisak & Miller, and McWhorter, and their studies. All of it. It’s important stuff.

And a lot of it is key to understanding the MRM, too.

Alice Sanguinaria
11 years ago

Jason – Men don’t feel entitled to women’s bodies? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Because obviously no one has ever implied that that denial of poon is a tragedy and that women’s agency is a tragedy for men because they can’t stick themselves into a woman who doesn’t want it.

Jason
Jason
11 years ago

Okay, Marie, here we go…

Your link shows slightly more than a hundred rapists, out of nearly two thousand men. You highlight the 120 men who have raped in red, but you don’t acknowledge the fact that 1,762 men haven’t raped. If rape was part of normal masculinity, you wouldn’t get such a high percentage of men who hadn’t raped at all. So, I think that supports my thesis that rapists are a small subset of men.

Considering that you can be labeled a sex offender and have your life ruined if you pee on a bush or go streaking now, I’d actually support a mercy call for first-time sex offenders, too. Then again, the guy in the article was actually talking about rapists. I think he supports being merciful on first-time rapists because he’s bought into the feminist myth that rapists are normal men who didn’t know what they were doing. it follows from that that many rapists might deserve a second chance.

By the way, mercy is never something to laugh at.

In that Texas case, the jury didn’t acquit the defendant based on the property rights argument, but on the argument that the defendant hadn’t intended to shoot the victim, but was aiming for her truck instead. Lawyers use every defense, no matter how silly it might sound – that’s their job. And in this case it’s irrelevant.

Jason
Jason
11 years ago

How do you know that “Don’t be that guy” didn’t just cut reports of sexual assault, by normalizing rape?

Jason
Jason
11 years ago

Oh, hellkell, such an eloquent and well-thought-out response…

Fade
11 years ago

I’d actually support a mercy call for first-time sex offenders, too.

Thank you for confirming that you are a horrible person.

For you to coddle first time sex offenders, you have to ignore their first victims.

Also, 1 in 20? That is not super low. One of the men I interact with is probably a rapist. How the hell is that acceptable?

cloudiah
11 years ago

Considering that you can be labeled a sex offender and have your life ruined if you pee on a bush or go streaking now, I’d actually support a mercy call for first-time sex offenders, too.

It is one thing to say that someone who streaks or pees while in public should not be put on a sex offender list; I wager most people here would agree with that. But you seem to be saying all sex offenders should get one “Get out of jail free” card, including rapists. NOPE.

Then again, the guy in the article was actually talking about rapists. I think he supports being merciful on first-time rapists because he’s bought into the feminist myth that rapists are normal men who didn’t know what they were doing. it follows from that that many rapists might deserve a second chance.

NOPE!

cloudiah
11 years ago

How do you know that “Don’t be that guy” didn’t just cut reports of sexual assault, by normalizing rape?

Mostly because we’re not incredibly stupid.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

because he’s bought into the feminist myth that rapists are normal men who didn’t know what they were doing

Wrong again, chump. They’re normal men who know EXACTLY what they’re doing.

How’s it feel to be this dumb?

Jason
Jason
11 years ago

Thank you for taking my quote out of context, Fade.

hellkell
hellkell
11 years ago

Your context was pretty clear, asshole.

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