Marie – “He did ask my sister to talk to her about it though :/ Which isn’t the best thing ever.”
Understatement of the year! That goes back to what I said him being your father and, frankly, needing to step up here. It’s his wife doing this, he’s the one in the direct relationship with her; it’s not Fade’s responsibility to do the talking here.
Yeah :/ No arguments there.
And I will actually try to go to bed now.
Good night all of you. It was fun talking, as always.
One more offering of free internet hugs for whoever wants them cuz I”m in a huggy mood.
Like I’m sitting around pretending everything’s peachy when it can’t be. It’s the only thing I can think about when I’m around her.
I’m fairly sure part of that is the waiting-for-the-shoe-to-drop that always happens with some people. Though it would do both of you some good for her to not say such things to you or in front of you, at all. You’re feeling nervy and tense around her because you never know when the next shitty thing will be said to you or about you.
Someone, dad, sis, a stranger in the street, the man in the moon, anyone, could try to persuade her that it’d be good to have the next three(?) visits/conversations entirely free of this kind of remark or joke or inference or hint or whatever word she might use to claim she’s not-actually-saying stuff. It’d let both of you work on developing conversational habits where this issue is completely off to the side, preferably off-limits.
For me, there’s another issue. In this house, we say “If you say it out loud, you’ve thought it twice” as a kind of reference to brain plasticity, self-reinforcing behaviours – because we’re both inclined to be a bit hard on ourselves at times. Doesn’t matter if you think it, just don’t reinforce it by saying it out loud. (Of course, this doesn’t apply if you’re talking to a therapist or having a deep and meaningful with a partner about how you really feel.) I very much doubt she knows how much she’s reinforcing and strengthening her own views rather than holding them as “just” an opinion by saying this stuff so frequently. The less you say it, the weaker – or at least the less strongly – you make the impact of those words and feelings on yourself. If it were truly “just an opinion” the subject wouldn’t come up very often at all.
attacking how? I mean I don’t see how pointing out someone’s an asshole is attacking them. (I mean I get why they think it feels like that? Kinda.)
Tangent, but it’s an open thread, so: I’ve been seeing people treat “privilege” as an insult lately. I’m thinking this is a thing: I say something ass-headed, somebody points out that I’m transposing my ass and my head, and I feel defensive. If I’m completely lacking in cognitive powers, somebody pointing out stuff that I’m blindly assuming is true for everyone is actually NOT (pointing out privilege, in case that’s not clear), then they must be insulting me!
Yeah. I don’t get it. “How dare you call me privileged, you asshole!” O.o
My family members over in Colorado are safe once again. And in other good news, I managed to make a C program that isn’t completely useless and clunky. Yay! Now, onto tackling the beast known as Java…seriously, that language is scary.
NonServiam
11 years ago
@Argenti
Thanks! I actually picked up the phrase at a lecture about Joyce and portrayals of the devil in literature. Not being a huge Joyce fan, I kind of drifted in and out but the the phrase “Non Serviam” really struck me.
I just think it’s a really great proclamation about character and opting out of obedience. 🙂
Also the hugs are very appreciated.
NonServiam
11 years ago
Oh, but I really no nothing else about latin! Just that one phrase and anything I’ve picked up from random art and literature.
[Content note: victim-blaming against abuse victims, abuse apologia]
Ugh, some online acquaintances who call themselves feminists* were recently talking shit about abuse victims, how “stupid” victims are for staying in abusive relationships, how abused parents are intentionally harming their children by staying with their abusers, and how abuse victims who find it difficult to get out of abusive relationships are only facing hardship because they want to be abused. The fuck is wrong with some people these days? I know that feminists are capable of being horrible people just like everyone else, but I was really shocked by this because they were just so blunt, cold, and despicable.
*And they seem that way too on the surface, given their talk about rape culture, objectification, misogyny, anti-MRA stuff, and so on.
Ally, really the only way to understand that kind of naked victim blaming is that they need a model of the world where there’s a reason some people are victimized and some aren’t. A JUST world, where the reason some people are in pain is because those people deserve it.
Because if you view the world as basically just, and evidence keeps cropping up that people are suffering, then they HAVE to deserve it.
Otherwise the whole world is just chaos. And it could happen to THEM, even though they’ve done everything right.
The Just World fallacy is probably a big part of it. I think a plain old empathy failure may be another key component.
Quick update on my psychiatry whining from yesterday: After all the anxiety about potentially having to argue with my psychiatrist, he just asked me a few standard questions and wrote out a prescription refill. It’s like he totally forgot about the “This medication is over-prescribed” lecture he gave me last time. Weird, but whatever – I got my refill, so I’m happy.
I’m glad to hear your family in CO is okay, Ally! Any word on the farm and/or fowl?
@NonServiam: I don’t have any good advice either. All I can offer are Internet hugs. The baby photos seem to be having technical difficulties at the moment. 🙁
AllyS: “Just World” beliefs are a double-edged sword. Not only does it make them shitty to people who need help, but it also can bite them in the butt later on.
I’ve run across a few commenters at Captain Awkward who had refused to recognize they were in an abusive relationship _because_ they believed themselves to be strong people who wouldn’t let something like that happen to them. As a result, some of them pushed away friends who saw the warning signs, and had less resources to draw on when they finally recognized what happened and needed to get the hell out.
I think we all have a little bit of Just World Fallacy going on. Just like one ought not believe that one could never become a victim because one’s so strong, one ought not to believe that one could never fall into the trap of JWF because one’s so rational (I’m not contradicting anyone in the thread with this, I just thought it needed saying explicitly).
Even if one’s rational enough to realize that people, for instance, can get cancer out of pure bad luck even if they’ve “done everything right” health-wise, one might still believe that one would never become psychologically damaged, because one’s psyche is something one controls. (Or one might admit that one isn’t psychologically invulnerable because nobody is, but believe that damaging one’s sense of self worth and so on would require something much more extreme than just a regular abusive asshole.)
Obviously, one possible reason someone doesn’t leave an abusive relationship is that the person is afraid of getting physically hurt or even killed if zie tries to leave… but I think it’s way more common that the abuser isn’t that dangerous on a physical level and the abused person stays because the abuser has messed up zir mind with the abuse. (I know that was the reason it took me a full year to break up for good and no second chances with my former boyfriend who wasn’t physically dangerous at all but mentally abusive and fucking evil that way.) And I think that’s the kind of situation that’s most likely to bring out victim-blaming. The way one thinks, the way one views relationships, what one considers a healthy relationship vs a get-the-fuck-out relationship – that’s really the kind of thing that so many people (including myself in the past) think that they have control of, even if they’re fully smart enough to realize that you can’t control everything about, say, physical health, or whether you become a victim of most kinds of crime or not.
It’s like Winston Smith in 1984, who knows that he may totally become wrongfully arrested, but mistakenly believes that he controls his own mind and nothing can touch him in there.
This is OT but today I’ve heard, for the second time, a Swedish feminist use “taking the red pill” as an analogue for becoming a FEMINIST.
Viscaria
11 years ago
Hiya from Edinburgh! This is the first time I’ve had 5 minutes of both spare time and Internet and now I’m rushing off again, but I thought I’d leave a little Man Boobz postcard. Look forward to chatting with everybody when I’m home.
I haven’t been able to give advice to Marie, because frankly, our parents took ‘not getting involved’ to its logical, horrifying conclusion, and I only got out of that by torching bridges and cutting contact. Which does the job but is pretty extreme.
Hey, I have a personal QUESTION to all insane people on this board: Do you have normal pain sensations? Or can you hurt yourself and not notice?
I ask because 1) I don’t, and 2) on a Swedish board for people with schizophrenia and schizo-fill-in-the-blank diagnosis where I used to be a member, lots of people reported the same thing, so maybe this is common among crazies?
Me and Husband tore down the old dog fence around our yard today, since we’re buying a new one. During work, I suddenly noticed that I had blood on my right arm. Turned out I had a real gash on it, so we had to go back inside and patch it up, but I hadn’t noticed when it happened. This is pretty common for me, I don’t notice if I accidentily cut myself with a knife or the like until I see the gash and the blood. I also don’t notice if I burn myself. I had a burn mark on my right arm for several years (it’s finally fading away now) because I once accidentily touched the side of the stove when I put more logs on the fire, and I didn’t feel it and pulled away, but let my arm reside there for seconds until I saw with my eyes that “oops, arm touching the stove”.
So anyone else, and particularly among the crazies here, who have this problem?
We Hunted The Mammoth
@kittehs
Yeah :/ No arguments there.
And I will actually try to go to bed now.
Good night all of you. It was fun talking, as always.
One more offering of free internet hugs for whoever wants them cuz I”m in a huggy mood.
<3
I’m fairly sure part of that is the waiting-for-the-shoe-to-drop that always happens with some people. Though it would do both of you some good for her to not say such things to you or in front of you, at all. You’re feeling nervy and tense around her because you never know when the next shitty thing will be said to you or about you.
Someone, dad, sis, a stranger in the street, the man in the moon, anyone, could try to persuade her that it’d be good to have the next three(?) visits/conversations entirely free of this kind of remark or joke or inference or hint or whatever word she might use to claim she’s not-actually-saying stuff. It’d let both of you work on developing conversational habits where this issue is completely off to the side, preferably off-limits.
For me, there’s another issue. In this house, we say “If you say it out loud, you’ve thought it twice” as a kind of reference to brain plasticity, self-reinforcing behaviours – because we’re both inclined to be a bit hard on ourselves at times. Doesn’t matter if you think it, just don’t reinforce it by saying it out loud. (Of course, this doesn’t apply if you’re talking to a therapist or having a deep and meaningful with a partner about how you really feel.) I very much doubt she knows how much she’s reinforcing and strengthening her own views rather than holding them as “just” an opinion by saying this stuff so frequently. The less you say it, the weaker – or at least the less strongly – you make the impact of those words and feelings on yourself. If it were truly “just an opinion” the subject wouldn’t come up very often at all.
I love that.
Tangent, but it’s an open thread, so: I’ve been seeing people treat “privilege” as an insult lately. I’m thinking this is a thing: I say something ass-headed, somebody points out that I’m transposing my ass and my head, and I feel defensive. If I’m completely lacking in cognitive powers, somebody pointing out stuff that I’m blindly assuming is true for everyone is actually NOT (pointing out privilege, in case that’s not clear), then they must be insulting me!
Yeah. I don’t get it. “How dare you call me privileged, you asshole!” O.o
Love this. 🙂
All sorts of good metaphors/similes in this thread.
My family members over in Colorado are safe once again. And in other good news, I managed to make a C program that isn’t completely useless and clunky. Yay! Now, onto tackling the beast known as Java…seriously, that language is scary.
@Argenti
Thanks! I actually picked up the phrase at a lecture about Joyce and portrayals of the devil in literature. Not being a huge Joyce fan, I kind of drifted in and out but the the phrase “Non Serviam” really struck me.
I just think it’s a really great proclamation about character and opting out of obedience. 🙂
Also the hugs are very appreciated.
Oh, but I really no nothing else about latin! Just that one phrase and anything I’ve picked up from random art and literature.
[Content note: victim-blaming against abuse victims, abuse apologia]
Ugh, some online acquaintances who call themselves feminists* were recently talking shit about abuse victims, how “stupid” victims are for staying in abusive relationships, how abused parents are intentionally harming their children by staying with their abusers, and how abuse victims who find it difficult to get out of abusive relationships are only facing hardship because they want to be abused. The fuck is wrong with some people these days? I know that feminists are capable of being horrible people just like everyone else, but I was really shocked by this because they were just so blunt, cold, and despicable.
*And they seem that way too on the surface, given their talk about rape culture, objectification, misogyny, anti-MRA stuff, and so on.
Ally, really the only way to understand that kind of naked victim blaming is that they need a model of the world where there’s a reason some people are victimized and some aren’t. A JUST world, where the reason some people are in pain is because those people deserve it.
Because if you view the world as basically just, and evidence keeps cropping up that people are suffering, then they HAVE to deserve it.
Otherwise the whole world is just chaos. And it could happen to THEM, even though they’ve done everything right.
And that would be too scary a world to live in.
The Just World fallacy is probably a big part of it. I think a plain old empathy failure may be another key component.
Quick update on my psychiatry whining from yesterday: After all the anxiety about potentially having to argue with my psychiatrist, he just asked me a few standard questions and wrote out a prescription refill. It’s like he totally forgot about the “This medication is over-prescribed” lecture he gave me last time. Weird, but whatever – I got my refill, so I’m happy.
I’m glad to hear your family in CO is okay, Ally! Any word on the farm and/or fowl?
@NonServiam: I don’t have any good advice either. All I can offer are Internet hugs. The baby photos seem to be having technical difficulties at the moment. 🙁
HUMONGOUS TRIGGER WARNING FOR PRACTICALLY EVERYTHING
Christ, there’s a guy in Arizona who’s running around drugging and branding his lovers in their vaginas.
There’s no indication that the man’s been arrested in that article, but I hope it comes soon if it hasn’t already.
AllyS: “Just World” beliefs are a double-edged sword. Not only does it make them shitty to people who need help, but it also can bite them in the butt later on.
I’ve run across a few commenters at Captain Awkward who had refused to recognize they were in an abusive relationship _because_ they believed themselves to be strong people who wouldn’t let something like that happen to them. As a result, some of them pushed away friends who saw the warning signs, and had less resources to draw on when they finally recognized what happened and needed to get the hell out.
And someone’s shooting up Washington, DC.
It never rains but it pours.
Ally, I’m so happy to hear you and yours are safe! Good luck with Java!
I think we all have a little bit of Just World Fallacy going on. Just like one ought not believe that one could never become a victim because one’s so strong, one ought not to believe that one could never fall into the trap of JWF because one’s so rational (I’m not contradicting anyone in the thread with this, I just thought it needed saying explicitly).
Even if one’s rational enough to realize that people, for instance, can get cancer out of pure bad luck even if they’ve “done everything right” health-wise, one might still believe that one would never become psychologically damaged, because one’s psyche is something one controls. (Or one might admit that one isn’t psychologically invulnerable because nobody is, but believe that damaging one’s sense of self worth and so on would require something much more extreme than just a regular abusive asshole.)
Obviously, one possible reason someone doesn’t leave an abusive relationship is that the person is afraid of getting physically hurt or even killed if zie tries to leave… but I think it’s way more common that the abuser isn’t that dangerous on a physical level and the abused person stays because the abuser has messed up zir mind with the abuse. (I know that was the reason it took me a full year to break up for good and no second chances with my former boyfriend who wasn’t physically dangerous at all but mentally abusive and fucking evil that way.) And I think that’s the kind of situation that’s most likely to bring out victim-blaming. The way one thinks, the way one views relationships, what one considers a healthy relationship vs a get-the-fuck-out relationship – that’s really the kind of thing that so many people (including myself in the past) think that they have control of, even if they’re fully smart enough to realize that you can’t control everything about, say, physical health, or whether you become a victim of most kinds of crime or not.
It’s like Winston Smith in 1984, who knows that he may totally become wrongfully arrested, but mistakenly believes that he controls his own mind and nothing can touch him in there.
This is OT but today I’ve heard, for the second time, a Swedish feminist use “taking the red pill” as an analogue for becoming a FEMINIST.
Hiya from Edinburgh! This is the first time I’ve had 5 minutes of both spare time and Internet and now I’m rushing off again, but I thought I’d leave a little Man Boobz postcard. Look forward to chatting with everybody when I’m home.
Hi Viscaria!
How’s bonnie Scotland these days?
::waves at Viscaria::
I haven’t been able to give advice to Marie, because frankly, our parents took ‘not getting involved’ to its logical, horrifying conclusion, and I only got out of that by torching bridges and cutting contact. Which does the job but is pretty extreme.
Have fun, Viscaria!
Hey, I have a personal QUESTION to all insane people on this board: Do you have normal pain sensations? Or can you hurt yourself and not notice?
I ask because 1) I don’t, and 2) on a Swedish board for people with schizophrenia and schizo-fill-in-the-blank diagnosis where I used to be a member, lots of people reported the same thing, so maybe this is common among crazies?
Me and Husband tore down the old dog fence around our yard today, since we’re buying a new one. During work, I suddenly noticed that I had blood on my right arm. Turned out I had a real gash on it, so we had to go back inside and patch it up, but I hadn’t noticed when it happened. This is pretty common for me, I don’t notice if I accidentily cut myself with a knife or the like until I see the gash and the blood. I also don’t notice if I burn myself. I had a burn mark on my right arm for several years (it’s finally fading away now) because I once accidentily touched the side of the stove when I put more logs on the fire, and I didn’t feel it and pulled away, but let my arm reside there for seconds until I saw with my eyes that “oops, arm touching the stove”.
So anyone else, and particularly among the crazies here, who have this problem?