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Men’s Rights Redditor on Gaming: “It would be nice if women/feminists … f**ked off and created their own thing rather than moving into a men’s space … .”

George Eliot: Should she have been alllowed to play video games?
George Eliot: Should she have been allowed to play Call of Duty?

So the other day the fellas in the Men’s Rights subreddit were having another thoughtful and nuanced discussion about OMG WOMEN PLAYING VIDEO GAMES GET OUT GIRL GERMS EWWWW GAMING IS FOR MEN ONLY HELP HELP WE’RE BEING OPPRESSED and the always insightful IHaveALargePenis offered this little suggestion to the “feminists/women” of the world:

IHaveALargePenis 25 points 6 days ago (51|26)  It would be nice if women/feminists for once fucked off and created their own thing rather than moving into a men's space (after decades of berating it and the men participating in it) and demanding things change to suit them.  Remember revenge of the nerds? A movie that's about 30 years old? All those "nerds" are the ones in charge of modern technology. They're the Bill Gates' and Steve Jobs' of today and people love their products. They didn't have it easy getting to where they did, they sure as shit weren't given a green light for simply being men. So why is it that women aren't walking down the same road? Hell it's not even the same road since most people don't actively insult them or tell them they can't do it for simply being women.  It would be nice if feminists for once proved everyone wrong and themselves right by getting a bunch of women together and creating a new system/industry from the ground up which men want to flock to.

Huh. So in return I guess men would agree to hand science fiction over to the ladies — after all, it was one of them, Mary Shelley, who basically invented the whole genre back in 1818 with her mad-scientist classic Frankenstein.

Mr. Penis also gets bonus points for explicitly conflating women and feminists — most MRAs do this only implicitly, and then pretend they haven’t — and wins this month’s “Really? You Really Just Said That?” MRA Irony Award for declaring in his second paragraph that “people don’t actively insult [women] or tell them they can’t [get involved in nerdy pursuits] for simply being women” after he JUST DID EXACTLY THAT ONE PARAGRAPH EARLIER.

One brave commenter responded to Mr. Penis’ screed with a detailed list of infliential women in the gaming industry. Amazingly, this comment wasn’t downvoted into oblivion, though it is worth noting that it got considerably fewer net upvotes that Mr. Penis’ masterpiece.

The thread, naturally, is full of poop from other contributors as well. Cthulusbaby not only doesn’t want women playing or expressing opinions about games; he doesn’t even want imaginary women in his games. No Manic Pixel Dream Girls for him!

Also, he seems to be under the impression that there are no men in romance movies.*

Cthulusbaby 4 points 5 days ago* (9|5)      what right do men have to claim an entire subculture as "their own space"?  When they are the overwhelming majority of consumers for it? Seriously, look at the demographics of men vs women for games like COD and Gears of War and explain how these online communities AREN'T male spaces?  I don't want female soldiers in my games about elite special forces, because in real life there are no female navy seals or SAS. Women just don't belong, there's no need for them in these games. I like my shoot-em-ups to be testosterone fuelled aggression simulators, not equal opportunity political propaganda.  It's exactly the same as a small but vocal minority of men complaining about male representation in sappy romance movies, and a shit ton of other men jumping on the bandwagon even though they've got no actual interest in it.      Also, you put an unfair and extremely skewed amount of blame on women for the amount of stigmatization placed on "nerds" back in the day. Sure there are women who berate gamers but I think mass media as a whole hasn't been doing that subculture any favors and to say that women are more to blame for that is completely unfounded and absurd.  I think you'll find that women are the primary consumers of TV media, and women are the ones who decide what is attractive and desirable in men. You'll notice that since the "nerd" archetype became more attractive to women, it's moved more into the mainstream and is no longer as socially unacceptable. You really think that is coincidence?  Upvoting you for providing an alternative viewpoint, but you're really misguided.

Acolmiztli, meanwhile, sheds a tear for the nerds that came before him:

acolmiztli 3 points 5 days ago (5|2)  Men were raised in a culture where playing video games was grounds for social pariah status and open hostility. It was amazing that anyone developed a love for computer games to the point of wanting to make it their career!!

Evidently the only way to rectify this past injustice is to do the same thing to women today? It’s the MEN’S RIGHTS WAY!

And hey, if women don’t like it, well, they can always just hide their gender identity. (On the Internet no one knows you’re George Eliot.)

poloppoyop 2 points 5 days ago (4|2)  A lot of free tools have been available for years to make games. Anyone can take the time to learn things, participate in open source softwares etc. If teenagers do it, I don't see what prevents women to do the same. Their gender? Nope, internet offers anonymity so you can participate in some project and people will consider you male until proven otherwise.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Sometimes all it takes to solve these silly lady problems is some good old-fashioned male ingenuity,

H/T to Againstmensrights on Reddits for pointing out Mr. Penis’ lovely remark, and making the same point about science fiction.

* Note to extremly literal-minded readers: I am not actually suggesting that Cthulusbaby thinks there are no men in romance movies. It is just that the way he is framing the issue is so ridiculous he might as well think that.

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Cthulhu's Intern
11 years ago

And of all shooters they could pick, why COD and things like that? How about Serious Sam, Painkiller, DOOM, or other ones that are about rocket jumping and killing hundreds of super powered monsters at a time while sprinting at 100 miles an hour nonstop? Or are those too hard for them?

Hell, how about Hotline Miami? It’s very fast-paced, violent, difficult, AND is rather artistic.

tinyorc
11 years ago

@ Karalora

Dudebro: Girls don’t play real games.
Reasonable Person: What constitutes a “real game”?
Dudebro: Any game that girls don’t play.

EXACTLY! It’s like a masterclass in circular reasoning!

Xen
Xen
11 years ago

All I hear is “BAWWW!” Seriously, grow the heck up. Women are human too, amazing right?

Falconer
11 years ago

@emilygoddess: I farmed for the golden chocobo, got the Knights of the Round, and killed Sephiroth in one round.

And then I must have bumped the controller or something because it went straight from Cloud leaping for Tifa’s hand as the battlefield collapsed around them to the credits.

A lot of PS2 JRPGs had plenty for the gamer to spend time on. I remember the golfing games from Dark Cloud and the Factory from Rogue Galaxy. I didn’t spend that much time on them, but I have put in over 100 hours on Oblivion and 50+ on Skyrim.

As for M:tG, it must have depended on where you were and who you played with. I was never deliberately made to feel excluded, but I did have a couple of guys try to rip me off, and I got a shitload of mansplaining. My favorite was the young man who was probably in diapers when I started playing, trying to explain to me how Slivers worked, even after I told him I had been fine-tuning my Sliver deck since Tempest came out almost ten years before.

I haven’t played Magic since like Ravnica and the feudal-Japan themed decks. I like to joke that I stopped playing before they killed banding.

twomoogles
twomoogles
11 years ago

There’s this weird MRA meme about how girls never played video games, made fun of guys who did and horribly abused the nerds…till recently, and now they think it’s cool and want all the video games to be girl-friendly! I dunno, I played NES Mario games when they first came out with my family–mom and brother. The only one who didn’t play was my dad! I’ve been playing video games since I was in elementary school.

I don’t remember there being *tons* of video game playing girls growing up, but it wasn’t freakish by any standards. And the ‘nerd mocking’ was just as likely to come from guys than girls.

Also even if tons of girls 20 years ago *did* make fun of video-game playing guys, that means women *today*, *different* women who did *not* do these things, shouldn’t play video games? That makes absolutely no sense.

It’s like these guys are so resentful that they didn’t have girls fawning over them in high school that they think no women today should ever participate in ‘their’ favourite activities.

BlackBloc (@XBlackBlocX)

>>>And of all shooters they could pick, why COD and things like that?

Because it is the most popular and has a huge competitive community, and probably one of the most mainstream games of all times besides maybe Halo series.

Which is also why it is casual shit if they ever need it to be for some other argument (like if you tell them that gamers are mainstream and not niche anymore, at which point they’ll say “yeah but it’s all like casual COD dudebros, not REAL gamers”).

LBT
LBT
11 years ago

I have absolutely no interest in First Person Shooters. Besides the fact that the gameplay would be tough for me to learn… I don’t LIKE shooting things. I live with Sneak, who has the strictest Lawful Good alignment of anyone I know, and playing games that’d upset zer are no fun.

…that said, zie DOES really like horror games. Zie and Gigs are working through a Let’s Play of Silent Hill 2 now. Go figure.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Sneak MAY like VtM:B — there is a fair amount of gore, but if you put points in the social feats you can get out of a lot of fights, and the rest are, um, evilly alligned? Or hunters — defense of self or others. Playing a saintly human is possible, and while FPS is an option, I go third person melee (or unarmed Gangrel this time).

I can give you a fully playable version if you want to give it a go, I’d recommend Malk for obfuscate so you can sneak by a lot of the random things that would otherwise attack you (one downside to that is that if you feed to renew the blood you need to do it, and are in a combat zone, you will have to kill because they’ll attack the moment you release them…I have a guilt trip over killing Grout’s ghouls because of this, I go for the stealth kill when possible — dead before they know you’re there)

Also, I’m a bit obsessed with it 🙂

Biggest downfall for you though might be listening for the guards, but it isn’t mono sound so I think you’d be okay. Lots of the side quests are either straight up good deeds, or have a diplomatic option (e.g. Venus needs some Russians dealt with since if she can’t pay…she’s “not fucking that fat old misogynist pig one more time”, and with high enough persuasion you can get him to sign over her loan to you)

I meant to play a low humanity character this time to see the dialog options, I failed, I’m just too nice. And that freebie tip? Don’t side with Prince Pain in the Ass (and bring a flamethrower to fight Ming Xiao)

Oh and let me do your keyboard first, it’d be far easier to play that way (also, I can install it for you that way if you want)

Pretty much though, if you play it as Sneak’d like to, you’re a light in dark times. And I’m not even kidding, freeing kidnapped vampires and reunited lovers, stopping a Tzimisce terrorizing Hollywood, putting down a demon that’s the sort who, well, “made little girl into hunter”. I like my gory games to involve fighting legit “bad guys”.

——

That’s not a “real game” of course. But I have a Tzimisce to stop! (And then two kidnappees to free and a hunter to help, and, hopefully, a murder to prevent, that one’s a bit harder as you either kill the gangsters and save the guy who gave you the info on their kidnappee, you flee and he dies, or you both die)

Fourth time through, still as fun as ever. But not playing FPS and a decade old so nope, not a real game.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

That got really long, sorry.

BlackSphinx
11 years ago

I really hate those real-gamer-cred-checking dudebros for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one right now is that they make me feel ashamed. I have worked hard for months saving up for a pink 3DS I can play Animal Crossing and Pokemon on, and even though I have time to kill between classes at uni I’d never bring it on campus out of fear of me being used as a prop in some bro’s argument that women aren’t real gamers.

I am a long time lover of JRPGs. I don’t have the best reflexes and first person perspective it kind of hard on me. The only FPS I play are the original Bioshock and Borderlands, which gets this weird stigma of not being a ~real shooter~ even though it has a lot of guys playing it. (’cause it’s not a war game I guess?) I’d pick a Tales of or a Shin Megami Tensei game over CoD or GoW any day of the week, which apparently makes me a stereotypical “girl” who only plays games “casually.”

I shouldn’t feel bad about this, but looking at the Recommended For You section on Amazon after looking up the price of a 3DS and seeing it full of Disney princesses and fashion doll games (while all the other colors are filled with Mario) really did.

saintnick86
saintnick86
11 years ago

The fact many geeks, who were often socially ostracized as kids and wanting things they liked to be taken seriously, become hostile whenever anyone tries to intellectually analyze their hobbies or claim that it should be more accessible is befuddling. I mean – isn’t this a good thing? Sure seems like it to me…

I suppose I’m not surprised by the unwarranted sense of ownership, having dealt with comicbook fans in the past: any changes made to a character were met with contempt, any editorial decisions to try appealing to a wider audience is derided as “political correctness” (I’m so fucking sick of hearing that phrase), and making the outfits of superheroines/supervillainesses less pandering (i.e. less over-sexualized) was treated like blasphemy accompanied with a lot of sexist sentiment. It was disparaging to see publishers listen to them and continue to cater to their tastes but – obviously – they’re never satisfied and would complain over the most minor details. What’s worse is having talented artists and writers who want to do something new and interesting limited by the editors in order to impress fanboys who are never impressed anyway.

saintnick86
saintnick86
11 years ago

*Well, DISAPPOINTING anyway – not disparaging…

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

I really think the underlying problem here is that some geeks think that they were ostracised becauses of the stuff they were into, whereas in fact they were ostracised because of their awkward personalities or their unconventional looks. I can see why trying to blame what happened to them on their hobbies would be easier than admitting that it really was about them as people, but the problem is that it’s not true, and it’s fuelling this weird sense of ownership towards the hobbies, the boundary policing around those hobbies, and so on.

kittehserf
11 years ago

Cassandra – yes, it probably wouldn’t have matttered what they were into; if they were bullied, the bullies would have treated anything about them with contempt. It also says little for their mega geek male thinking brains that they just turn around and try to treat women the same way. (Well, okay, perhaps about their emotional development, but since they pride themselves on their Grate Male Brainz we’ll go with that.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

It’s like the idea that being really intelligent gets you bullied. Nope, intelligent + awkward/unattractive/some other factor that kids can pick at because they’re assholes makes you a target. Really smart people who’re also conventionally attractive with excellent social skills don’t get bullied for being smart.

saintnick86
saintnick86
11 years ago

The notion that videogames made them ostracized is particularly absurd, but I say that as someone who went to a school where playing videogames was common amongst every clique. If you openly liked comics or anime, that might get you insulted and/or tormented (if only as an excuse for context than “’cause I felt like it”), but just about everyone – popular or unpopular – was into them. Given a lot of these guys are probably around my age, I call bullshit on their claim.

The reality is that bullies don’t give a shit what you are into as much as how open you are as a target for derision and a candidate as a human punching bag. They simply used those hobbies, as long as they weren’t mainstream, as a way to deflect the real reason they were doing so in the first place.

sarahlizhousespouse
11 years ago

@Howard

AoE II was my favorite game when I was a preteen. I just found an updated version of the first and second game at my local Half Price Books. Best investment ever.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

That’s the point, the stuff is an excuse to bully someone, it’s not the actual reason for the bullying. If the person being bullied wasn’t into games or comics then the bullies would have found something else to torment them about.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago

Let’s see…

Bullied for —

Being a techie? Nope.
VtM? Nope (heck, I got invited to a failed attempt at D&D)
President of the GSA and openly bi? Nope.
Androgynous look? Nope.
Goth? Well, only the day I accidentally wore my cape on the Harry Potter opening (the rest of the techies wanted to see it and I scheduled that around when I knew I wouldn’t be painting, pure bad luck)
Bookworm? Sorta, but not exactly.
Pulling Bs without trying? Only when I wouldn’t let the jocks and cheerleaders cheat.
Math whiz? Nope, and that sort doesn’t take honors math (I opted out of honors science to avoid the teacher from hell and dissecting a cat, a rat was bad enough [though I did leave the skin attached at the neck and fly it around the room as Super Rat before continuing {laughed with, not at for that}])

Awkward kid who preferred books? Dum dum dum! There we have it!

lowquacks
lowquacks
11 years ago

@sarahlizhousespouse

Same here! Except sub “illegally torrented” for “found at Half Price Bookshop”. Excellent game even some 10 years later, and I’m not even one for videogames at all usually.

katz
11 years ago

Whether they actually got bullied for the reasons they say is not the point; the point is that regardless of why they were bullied, it’s not reasonable to exclude other people as a response.

kittehserf
11 years ago

Not least since those people aren’t the ones who bullied, them, and if being-a-geek were the real reason these guys were put upon, the geek women would have copped exactly the same shit.

Jessay (@jessay)
11 years ago

Yeaaaah, pretty much everyone I knew at least played some video games, male or female, in all social groups. My brother was always given the video game systems for Christmas and birthdays but I always played with him, along with my male and female cousins, and all our friends of both sexes. I had my own gameboy, but we shared the nintendos and whatnot. It wasn’t so much the playing video games that made people outcasted as “nerds” but something more about their personality. But for every nerd group there were girls who were just as much outcasts, and so they just dated each other. I’m really puzzled when I hear about the plight of the nerd. No, they generally didn’t get the cheerleader girlfriend, but the female nerd wasn’t exactly landing the BMOC either. I had just as hard a time landing a man in high school as an “emo” drama geek as my brother did being into video games and heavy metal. But these dudes will say I was just friendzoning men and that’s why I was alone. LOL, yeah, ok buddy. Me and all my girlfriends were just turning men down left and right and complaining about nothing, surrreee.

If you’re an adult still stuck on high school drama you have bigger problems than women playing your video games.

Jessay (@jessay)
11 years ago

Oh and speaking of Sci-Fi and MRA’s, I watched the Matrix in full tonight for the first time maybe since it came out, and I was laughing at how MRA’s use the “red pill” analogy and completely ignore the pro-feminism aspects of the movie, including the main female character rolling her eyes at Keanu Reaves for reading about her hacking skills and assuming she was a man just like most men do. Women in male spaces amirite?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
11 years ago

Trying to understand why people cling to those social dynamics is even harder if you didn’t go to that sort of high school. I went to a girls boarding school with a bunch of toffs – I was as alternative as it gets and one of my best friends was a hardcore jock, best runner at our school. Me – goth looking, dating dudes with long hair, into obnoxiously loud music. Her – blonde and blue eyed, loved boy bands, wholesome as it gets. Nobody thought it was weird that we were friends.