For a certain subset of horrible men, there are few things more infuriating than the fact that women they find undesirable can turn down men for sex. For this upsets their primitive sense of justice: such women should be so grateful for any male attention, these men think, that turning down even the most boorish of men shouldn’t even be an option for them.
Consider the reactions of some of the regulars on date-rapey pickup guru Roosh V’s forum to the story of Josh and Mary on the dating site Plenty of Fish. One fine December evening, you see, Josh decided to try a little “direct game” on Mary.
That’s what the fellas on Roosh’s forum call it, anyway. The rest of us would call it sexual harassment.
Josh started off by asking Mary if she “wanted to be fuck buddies.” She said “nope,” and the conversation went downhill from there, with Josh sending a series of increasingly explicit comments to Mary, despite getting nothing but negative replies from her.
After eight messages from Josh, with the last one suggesting he would pay her $50 to “come over right now and swallow my load,” Mary turned the tables, noting that she’d been able to deduce his real identity from his PoF profile, and asking him if he wanted her to send screenshots of the chat to his mother and grandmother. He begged her not to.
As you may have already figured out, from the fact that we’re talking about this story in public, Mary did indeed pass along the screenshots, and posted them online.
Poetic justice? Not to the fellas on Roosh’s forum. Because, you see, Mary is … a fat chick.
While dismissing Josh as a “chode” with “atrocious game,” Scorpion saved most of his anger for the harassed woman:
Look how much she relishes not only shooting him down, but damaging his reputation with his own family. She’s positively intoxicated with her power. Simply spitting bad direct game is enough to unleash her vindictive fury.
“Bad direct game.” I’m pretty sure even Clarence Thomas would consider what Josh did sexual harassment.
At any point, she could have pressed a single button and blocked the man from communicating with her, but she didn’t. She didn’t because she enjoys the feeling of power she gets from receiving attention from guys like this and then brutally shooting them down. It makes her feel much hotter and more desirable than she actually is in real life. She’s not there to meet men; she’s there to virtually castrate them for her own amusement.
I’m guessing here, but I’m pretty sure that nowhere in Mary’s profile did she encourage the men of PoF to send her explicit sexual propositions out of the blue. And I’m pretty sure she didn’t hold a gun to Josh’s head and force him to send a half-dozen sexually explicit harassing messages to a woman he didn’t know.
Athlone McGinnis also relies heavily on euphemism when describing Josh’s appalling behavior:
I don’t think its primarily the revenge she’s after, its the validation. She is enjoying the power she has over this guy and wielding it brutally because it shows she can maintain standards despite her weight and the doubtless numerous confidence issues that stem from it. In blowing up this guy for being too direct in his evaluation of her sexuality, she affirms the value of her own sexuality.
Oh, so he was just being “direct in his evaluation of her sexuality.”
In short: “I am wanted, but I have standards and can choose. I have so much agency despite my weight that I can go as far as to punish those who approach me in a way I do not like rather than simply blocking them. I’m teaching them a lesson, because I’m valuable enough to provide such lessons.
So apparently in Mr. McGinnis’ world women who are fat aren’t supposed to have agency? They’re not supposed to be able to choose? They’re supposed to drop their panties to any guy who offers to be their fuck buddy or tells them to “suck my dick?”
Also, I’m a victim bravely standing up against online bullying/harassment-look at me!”
Yeah, actually, she is. Get used to it, guys, because you’re going to see a lot more of this in the future.
This isn’t just a laughing matter for her. She needs to be able to do this in order to feel worthwhile. She has to be able to show that even she is able to maintain standards and doesn’t have to settle for just any old guy asking for any old sexual favor simply because she resembles a beached manatee.
And it’s not a laughing matter for you either, is it? You’re actually angry that a woman said no to a sexual harasser — because you don’t find her attractive. And because Josh — from his picture, a conventionally attractive, non-fat fellow — did.
Mr. McGinnis, may a fat person sit on your dreams, and crush them.
And I felt like I had nothing to add to my arguments here anymore, another reason why I didn’t want to contribute any further, but pecunium’s posts were substantive enough that they deserved a response so my solution was to look at pecunium’s public blog site and ask the question there. I’m happy to post my response here if you all feel so strongly about it.
Then answer the damned questions where they were asked, not like this thread hasn’t already been derailed into oblivion. And if you were trying to avoid the mallet of loving correction, I’m fairly sure that pecunium is less forgiving of shit like this.
Male pronouns for pecunium, gender neutral for me (ze/zir) and while we’re on the topic, what’re yours?
The thread has grown SO LONG since last I looked at it… I wrote about how common “how not to get raped” advice sucks, but at this point I want to say that I do not think it’s always and automatically wrong to discuss how to deal with predators.
On my Swedish feminist group on Facebook there was a discussion a while ago about feminist self defence. It’s a fairly popular concept here at least. I haven’t been to feminist self defence classes myself, but from what I understand, it’s not so much about learning martial arts (since that takes TIIIIIIIME, and these classes are typically fairly short), but mostly psychological stuff. Talking about strategies abusers use to manipulate, control and intimidate, pepping each other to set boundaries and yeah, even hit back if need be. Now obviously this doesn’t mean that you’re guaranteed not to get raped. But considering the vast majority of rapes are not commited by some stranger suddenly launching a violent attack, it can probably prevent SOME rapes at least.
Some people in my feminist FB group did argue against feminist self defence because
– the would-be rapist will just take another victim instead (I think that’s a fairly bad argument because a) we don’t know that this particular rapist is super determined and won’t give up when things get a little bit more difficult than he anticipated, and b) no one has ever claimed that feminist self defence is about bringing down the rape rate overall – it’s about helping the women in the class, not about turning the world into utopia, and obviously we should have “don’t be that guy” campaigns and general feminist activism AS WELL).
– As soon as we give women any kind of advice, that’s gonna turn into victim-blaming.
And I totally see how classes like this COULD turn into victim-blaming – someone going “if you’d just taken feminist self defence classes that wouldn’t have happened”. But I don’t think that’s NECESSARILY the case. We have to continue to stress that every situation is different, lots of people react on pure instinct when cornered (making talk about what one ought to have done instead pointless), and also that the rapist may be someone you have deep emotional ties to making it super difficult to act “rationally”.
At the end of the day, I do come down on the side of those who say that trying to teach and encourage interested women to set boundaries and stand up for themselves is better than not doing this. (Although it’s OBVIOUSLY not supposed to REPLACE activism directed at would-be perpetrators, and it’s OBVIOUSLY no fool-proof way of avoiding rape.) At the end of the day, if any kind of advising of would-be victims rather than perpetrators is wrong and victim-blaming, we’d have to shut down stuff like Captain Awkward’s advise on how to deal with stalkers, for instance, with the argument that it’s up to the stalkers to stop stalking and not up to the victims’ to deal with them, and… it’s just not feasible if you take it that far.
I still think that 99 % of all anti-rape advice is pure misogyny though (as explained in my previous post in the thread).
misery: I think we can live without your commentary.
@hellkell, you’re in luck, Dvärghundspossen made the exact point I was trying to make so there’s no need for me to be tiresome anymore.
Dvarg managed to do it without calling us overly emotional anti-intellectuals. You could learn something.
I feel like neither misery nor AnonGuy are getting the message here.
I didn’t call anyone overly emotional, didn’t we establish that earlier when Alex accused me of the same thing?
And aren’t you the person that made fun of security as an academic field?
Yes, I did. You probably can’t see why.
Why don’t you drop it and fuck off?
Misery, I’m dying to know where you’re getting your master’s degree from.
You did accuse us of being anti-intellectual. You also said we were making “purely false” statements, and accused us of intellectual dishonesty. Furthermore, you were condescending and patronizing, and then you gaslit us and backpedaled. Dvarg did nothing of the sort.
Misery: Just caught up on the thread. I want to address a single post with you:
<blockquote.misery | August 26, 2013 at 9:19 pm
@Alex, you are just disagreeing with me without actually disagreeing with anything I say. I’m not claiming that more awareness of red flags will solve rape, I’m asking you if you think more broad awareness of red flags is a bad thing. It’s a simple yes or no question, which will also resolve this discussion.
If you’re not suggesting that ‘awareness of red flags will solve rape’, then the discussion of red flags was irrelevant and side-tracky from the get-go. Furthermore, that last line? It’s astoundingly condescending and an attempt to control the conversation. There’s only one way to declare a discussion ‘resolved’, and that’s to agree to drop the point you’re trying to make in it–to concede, at least within the context of the forum, that you’ve either been making a bad point, or making a good one so badly that it’s now a lost cause, and just. Let. It. Go.
Any other attempt to ‘set terms’ that the other party isn’t consulted on? Rude and controlling behavior, and generally worth getting called out on.
Dvarg:
Your post was much better-stated, and I’m going to address one element of it, that I hope emphasizes the distinction.
The women taking those classes? They’re opting in to a particular approach for their own sense of well-being. I’m all about that, and I doubt anyone here is against it. It’s when we move from “giving potential victims options” to “creating a do/don’t tip list” that we go problematic.
I’m all about Misery and other folks studying the issue of security as an academic matter going about their business. It’s useful information for people who have concerns to be able to locate and look up, so long as it’s well-presented.
The problem, however, comes when this data is wedged into just about every damned conversation about rape, ever (especially online or in the media). Talk about the “don’t be that guy” campaign? Someone offers tips about how to avoid rape. Report on a rape that happened? Someone offers tips about how to avoid rape. Talk about rape-culture and victim-blaming? Someone offers tips about how to avoid rape. It’s a pattern, and if that pattern were, by some magical means, made into an anthropological manifestation, that pattern would need to be punched in the face.
Well said.
Self-defense as an option for women who want it and are capable of it is great. It can be empowering to know you can fight back even if most rapes don’t give you the chance to use it. Giving potential victims the tools to make their own call if they’re ever faced with rape is fine. But if that’s what misery meant to say, he failed at it. Miserably.
@LBT–
So I’m probably showing my ignorance here, but I’m trying to get more into rap and I really liked that but don’t know who it is and didn’t see anything on the page about that. Can you give me the name of that artist?
@Dvarg and freemage, I totally agree with both of you. I don’t think most posters here are against all discussion of self-defense (in a broad sense; not just physical self-defense) tactics all the time. I know I’ve talked with people here about the book “The Gift of Fear,” which (aside from the DV chapter which does get pretty victim-blamey at times) has had a positive response with everyone I can remember (sorry if I’m forgetting someone).
The reason things like that get a positive reception, so far as I can tell, are [I’m using masculine pronouns because I’m thinking of de Becker’s book, but any pronouns would work]:
1 (and possibly the most important)). The author is not forcing his advice on victims or anyone else who doesn’t want the information. He isn’t inserting his theories and advice into any topic about rape. He just put it out there should someone want to read it.
2.) He manages to walk the line of talking about prevention while still putting the blame fully on the aggressor. He acknowledges the social pressures women face to be nice and accommodating, and that our early socialization makes it difficult for many of us to stand up and say no to a seemingly nice guy who is testing our boundaries.
3.) The advice he gives is actually useful and empowering. He acknowledges that most people won’t be able to physically overpower an attacker, that most attackers are known and trusted by their victims, etc. and talks about early warning signs and how to recognize someone who likely poses a threat to us, even if they seem nice at first. He focuses on empowering us to trust our own instincts, rather than giving us a list of situations to avoid.
4.) He doesn’t tell us to stop living our lives, or to avoid normal social situations like parties, or to never go out without a bodyguard, etc. He instead focuses on teaching people how predators act, and how to recognize and avoid that if possible.
I don’t know, what do you guys think about that? I’m using de Becker’s book as an example because it’s actually the only “how to stop yourself from being raped” advice that I can think of which doesn’t get offensive and victim-blamey (for the most part), and those are pretty much the things I think sets it apart from the typical “don’t be a victim” advice.
@freemage,
There are standard ways to resolve debates, one of them would be to discover that you aren’t even disagreeing. You can ominously call that trying to control the conversation, but I would call it being rational. (see here)
>>There are standard ways to resolve debates
Because as well know, this site’s byline is “Misogyny. I debate it.”
Debate implies a good faith attempt at arriving at a consensus. I question your “good faith”. In fact I happen to adhere to an intellectual tradition that thinks that as far as social justice is concerned, particularly when it comes to questions of class, race and gender, “good faith” is in pretty thin supply all around from white cis heterosexual men, and that therefore debate is the sort of thing you do with your comrades rather than with the enemy.
Misery: This was not a definitional debate. Your point was, at best, tangential to the topic at hand–it was derailing, whether you meant it to be or not, so demanding a response to the question you raised was also an attempt to control the conversation.
Apparently misery thinks that this blog’s new tagline should be “my poor communication skills – they’re everyone else’s fault”.
That is if we were to even buy zie’s latest round of patronizing bullshit, and…nah, not so much.
AK and Freemage, you both make good points. There’s an important difference between giving advice to people who ask for it and shoving it in everyone’s face as soon as someone mentions rape, and there’s also a very important difference between empowering advice (like telling people that it’s okay not to be “nice” all the time and trust their own judgement) and advice that basically tells you that you ought to be afraid and on your guard all the time.
@freemage
I had a few main points:
1. calling all rape prevention strategy harmful is theoretically unsound
2. claims about the effectiveness of rape prevention strategy can be evaluated on their merits using frameworks from academic security. That means when someone here says “advice is useless because rapists can just redirect targets” this is a claim that can be evaluated and judged as false.
3. rejecting #2 is an example of anti-intellectualism
4. my personal example of a rape prevention strategy that can be useful is educating about red flags
You can see how #4 is directly related to #1. Most people here endorsed #4, but disagreed with #1, which is a logic fail.
ehm, and point 5: the context of education/advice matters and that’s one way to address the problem of victim blaming. If it’s in the context of creating awareness about something that’s entirely different from someone telling a rape victim they should have done X to prevent it. An example for this is that you tell potential victims of bullying that they should go to the authorities, however, you don’t tell actual victims of bullying that they should have gone to the authorities.
“Self-defense classes are available for those who want them” is help. “But why didn’t you/she do X, Y, and Z like the self-defense classes could have taught you” is rape culture, and so is “wow, someone was raped again – we should make sure that women know how to avoid that”. This really isn’t complicated.
If misery can’t tell why hir comments are coming across as “wow, someone was raped again – we should make sure women know how to avoid that” then we’re back to “my poor communication skills are everyone else’s fault”. We’re also, and I think I speak for most commenters here, rather curious as to why this is the hill that zie has chosen to die on.