For a certain subset of horrible men, there are few things more infuriating than the fact that women they find undesirable can turn down men for sex. For this upsets their primitive sense of justice: such women should be so grateful for any male attention, these men think, that turning down even the most boorish of men shouldn’t even be an option for them.
Consider the reactions of some of the regulars on date-rapey pickup guru Roosh V’s forum to the story of Josh and Mary on the dating site Plenty of Fish. One fine December evening, you see, Josh decided to try a little “direct game” on Mary.
That’s what the fellas on Roosh’s forum call it, anyway. The rest of us would call it sexual harassment.
Josh started off by asking Mary if she “wanted to be fuck buddies.” She said “nope,” and the conversation went downhill from there, with Josh sending a series of increasingly explicit comments to Mary, despite getting nothing but negative replies from her.
After eight messages from Josh, with the last one suggesting he would pay her $50 to “come over right now and swallow my load,” Mary turned the tables, noting that she’d been able to deduce his real identity from his PoF profile, and asking him if he wanted her to send screenshots of the chat to his mother and grandmother. He begged her not to.
As you may have already figured out, from the fact that we’re talking about this story in public, Mary did indeed pass along the screenshots, and posted them online.
Poetic justice? Not to the fellas on Roosh’s forum. Because, you see, Mary is … a fat chick.
While dismissing Josh as a “chode” with “atrocious game,” Scorpion saved most of his anger for the harassed woman:
Look how much she relishes not only shooting him down, but damaging his reputation with his own family. She’s positively intoxicated with her power. Simply spitting bad direct game is enough to unleash her vindictive fury.
“Bad direct game.” I’m pretty sure even Clarence Thomas would consider what Josh did sexual harassment.
At any point, she could have pressed a single button and blocked the man from communicating with her, but she didn’t. She didn’t because she enjoys the feeling of power she gets from receiving attention from guys like this and then brutally shooting them down. It makes her feel much hotter and more desirable than she actually is in real life. She’s not there to meet men; she’s there to virtually castrate them for her own amusement.
I’m guessing here, but I’m pretty sure that nowhere in Mary’s profile did she encourage the men of PoF to send her explicit sexual propositions out of the blue. And I’m pretty sure she didn’t hold a gun to Josh’s head and force him to send a half-dozen sexually explicit harassing messages to a woman he didn’t know.
Athlone McGinnis also relies heavily on euphemism when describing Josh’s appalling behavior:
I don’t think its primarily the revenge she’s after, its the validation. She is enjoying the power she has over this guy and wielding it brutally because it shows she can maintain standards despite her weight and the doubtless numerous confidence issues that stem from it. In blowing up this guy for being too direct in his evaluation of her sexuality, she affirms the value of her own sexuality.
Oh, so he was just being “direct in his evaluation of her sexuality.”
In short: “I am wanted, but I have standards and can choose. I have so much agency despite my weight that I can go as far as to punish those who approach me in a way I do not like rather than simply blocking them. I’m teaching them a lesson, because I’m valuable enough to provide such lessons.
So apparently in Mr. McGinnis’ world women who are fat aren’t supposed to have agency? They’re not supposed to be able to choose? They’re supposed to drop their panties to any guy who offers to be their fuck buddy or tells them to “suck my dick?”
Also, I’m a victim bravely standing up against online bullying/harassment-look at me!”
Yeah, actually, she is. Get used to it, guys, because you’re going to see a lot more of this in the future.
This isn’t just a laughing matter for her. She needs to be able to do this in order to feel worthwhile. She has to be able to show that even she is able to maintain standards and doesn’t have to settle for just any old guy asking for any old sexual favor simply because she resembles a beached manatee.
And it’s not a laughing matter for you either, is it? You’re actually angry that a woman said no to a sexual harasser — because you don’t find her attractive. And because Josh — from his picture, a conventionally attractive, non-fat fellow — did.
Mr. McGinnis, may a fat person sit on your dreams, and crush them.
Well at least AG admits he’s our antagonist.
Followup question: WTF does ghostriding have to do with this discussion?
It’s easy to come up with examples of harmful advice, it’s also easy to show that most advice is harmful, so if you are intent on arguing in dishonest fashion it’s also easy to attack me, but please tell me why having more broad awareness of ‘red flags’ for rapists is a bad thing? I know that we should try and do something about rape culture, but that’s like saying we shouldn’t have any police until we’ve done something about the culture that leads to criminal gangs in poor neighborhoods. It’s possible to work at it from two angles at once you know.
Two funnies in one day? I don’t often make funnies, so Ima gloat on that a bit.
ghostrider = someone that rides on the opposite side of the street. It’s a Dutch term, I figured this would be the English translation. One example of a drunk driver would be a ghostrider. Please tell me why you’re against radio announcements to warn people.
Because rapists don’t follow a set pattern, like we’ve tried to tell you. One rapist’s red flag won’t be another’s. Jesus.
Do you even know how predators operate?
someone that rides in the wrong direction I should say*
Is the bulletin a Dutch thing? They don’t do that in the U.S., not very often.
AnonymousGuy, you are talking about something you have never experienced and don’t seem to know much about. I repeat, AGAIN, as one dude to another: shut the fuck up.
Seriously. I’m pissed talking to you, a lot of other folks seem to be getting pissed, and you aren’t engaging with anything I’ve said. Please, for the love of god, shut your meat flaps.
So, AG, you’re not “one of us” now, simply because we disagree with your claims about rape prevention? You think disagreeing with you and pointing out that you’re wrong = bullying? You’re an antagonist now, not a supporter, because of online comments?
How fragile a thing is some dudes’ support when the wimminz don’t agree with their every word.
Rapists do follow set patterns. Every rapist is unique, but many share certain characteristics.
misery: are you just willfully obtuse?
Dude, we DO have awareness of red flags. Really doesn’t help if it’s your damn family member. Doesn’t help if it’s a childhood friend you’ve had for YEARS. Doesn’t help if you’re asleep or drunk or otherwise incapacitated. Doesn’t help if you feel there’s something wrong about someone, but everyone in your circle minimizes your feelings.
They all commit rape, for example.
Ninjaed!
Why are you against holding drunk drivers responsible for their behavior?
@Alex, you are just disagreeing with me without actually disagreeing with anything I say. I’m not claiming that more awareness of red flags will solve rape, I’m asking you if you think more broad awareness of red flags is a bad thing. It’s a simple yes or no question, which will also resolve this discussion.
RE: misery
but please tell me why having more broad awareness of ‘red flags’ for rapists is a bad thing?
Seeking them out, on your own, is fine. But telling me this–or my mom–when we were aware of these red flags and STILL COULDN’T DO ANYTHING, is really fucking patronizing.
My mom was a child. Even if she knew all the red flags… what could she have done? Every time rape gets brought up, SOMEBODY talks about what we could’ve done, what we could’ve learned, what we can do next time. It’s exhausting, it’s annoying, and it’s really fucking patronizing. There’s very little focus on the rapist, and every time someone tries to, like in this conversation here, someone like you comes out and goes, “But wait, what if you COULD–”
Stop. Just please stop.
How can a unique thing share characteristics with something else?
“How fragile a thing is some dudes’ support when the wimminz don’t agree with their every word.”
And we’ll totally drive him away from feminism because we’re so meeeeeeeeeaaaaaaan.
Oh noes! We are being INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST!!!
Maybe it’s a language nuance thing, but your phrasing about the radio thing read as distinctly condescending.
Also, don’t universalise what’s done in Holland to the rest of the world, or assume that everyone listens to the radio at all (I do not). Suggesting I’m somehow “against people being warned” by radio campaigns is just stupid.
NO ONE IS AGAINST RADIO ANNOUNCEMENTS ABOUT GHOST RIDERS.
So where are these studies about the red flags that are commonly used by most rapists?
I’m not actually opposed to educating people, in general, about red flags for abuse or (if they exist) red flags for rapists. I actually think one of the reasons educational campaigns about rape work is that people collectively know more about what rape is, and when they see signs that someone is behaving in a predatory way they are more likely to intervene. I am opposed to putting forward the idea that people can avoid being raped, because the fact is you really can’t. There’s no magical behavior or amulet. And it sends the message to rape victims that they had a hand in what was done to them.
Why don’t you want to hold drunks or rapists responsible for their behavior, misery?
“Seriously. I’m pissed talking to you, a lot of other folks seem to be getting pissed, and you aren’t engaging with anything I’ve said. Please, for the love of god, shut your meat flaps.”
You can’t really engage with a bully. You can point out that he is engaged in bullying, but an attack is not an argument and can’t be reasoned with.
What? I paid $15 for that bracelet with kitty pics!
For some reason, although people keep asking for it, no one has addressed the Jocelyn Hollander piece I posted so I’ll post it again.
http://www.raperesistance.org/research/Teaching_womens_resistance.pdf