I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
You really have a fixation on intellectual dishonesty, don’t you?
I do. I mean I REALLY do. If I observe a conversation where someone is using dishonest rhetoric, even if I entirely agree with their conclusions, I will stop the conversation and call them on it.
This little self-awareness…
Argument by insinuation. Another dishonest rhetorical tactic.
RE: Asher
Oh good. I’m glad you enjoy small children. I’d hate to think arguments over the Klan and intellectual dishonesty were the joys of your life.
Also, uh. If you didn’t come here to argue… what do you call the past ten comments?
OMG. I love this guy. If I promise to feed him a steady diet of intellectual dishonesty, can I keep him? (PS: MRAS ARE SNOWMEN.)
You guys, Asher gets to define what a troll is.
Asher, asshats like the ones being mocked here would have everyspace made woman free, if they had their way. Well, except you know, the kitchen and perhaps thirty minutes in their bedroom.
I know some guys (so excited!!! Meeting up with a local embroidery group soon! And some of the work the guys there do is AMAZING!) Who are major geeks in various forms of embroidery, so because they are geeky about this I should give up embroidery? I mean, I can’t really watch my favorite tv shows, can’t play the games I lke, can’t meet the artists I admire, christ lord help me if I were to produce my own artwork/game and ever try to show it….can’t sew costumes/clothing in time periods I prefer…all because a few douchecanoes decided that they get to push women out of vast areas of fun, entertainment or skill development and JOBS.
I’m sorry, but men don’t get to claim all the fun in the world for themselves.
I wasn’t arguing just for the sake of arguing. *That* would be trollery. My first comment was directed at the dishonest rhetorical ploy of equating male geeks with the Klan, and most of my subsequent comments were pointing out my use of a rhetorical tactic to demonstrate the absurdity of it.
I mean, he thinks he has the standing to call other people on their intellectual dishonesty.
Asher hates puppies.
Asher hates puppies.
Asher hates puppies.
Asher hates puppies.
RE: Asher
I wasn’t arguing just for the sake of arguing
NOW who’s being intellectually dishonest?
asshats like the ones being mocked here would have everyspace made woman free,
No they wouldn’t. This is just you making sh*t up. Another dishonest tactic.
Who are major geeks in various forms of embroidery,
Great. I play co-ed soccer and sometimes snowboard with women. What’s your point? I mean, other than the lie you told about male geeks wanting a woman-free world.
Let’s just revisit the post:
Also, OMFG guys, one of my favorite comics creators made a limited, paper-only run of a comic. It sold out in two hours, but GUESS WHO GOT HIS ORDER IN FIRST? *points to self*
PS: Asher is actually a large automaton made entirely of duct tape and turtles.
katz has posted evidence that Asher is an anti-puppyist. KILL HIM. BURN HIM.
NOW who’s being intellectually dishonest?
I don’t think you understand what “intellectual dishonest” means. It’s not the same thing as a lie, per se. If you’re interested in the concept I would invite you to read Aristotle’s Sophistical Refutations. In fact this comment of yours is intellectually dishonest in implying that I am arguing just for the sake of arguing.
What you are doing is speculating on why I *really* made the initial comment. I have not speculated about you but, merely, pointed out your behavoir.
RE: Asher
I don’t think you understand what “intellectual dishonest” means
I don’t think you understand a lot of things.
In fact this comment of yours is intellectually dishonest in implying that I am arguing just for the sake of arguing.
No, no, it was intellectually dishonest because I said you were made out of duct tape and turtles, when in fact you are made out of duct tape and babies.
Seriously, guys, this guy is the most fun I’ve had here all week. Please, PLEASE can I keep him?
Consider the following claim: There was a fifty percent increase in the number of black homosexuals who voted Republican from 2010 to 2012.
For argument’s sake let’s say that this figure is correct and it refers to two such individuals who voted in 2010 to three who voted GOP in 2012. Now, one individual is statistically insignificant so, while the statement may be entire correct it is misleading. That would be an example of intellectual dishonesty.
Nothing in the original post was a flat-out lie.but his equating male geeks with the Klan was intellectually dishonest.
On the other hand, your claim that “those people” you guys was mocking want a woman-free world *was* a lie, not intellectual dishonesty.
I don’t think you understand a lot of things.
Can you cite examples?
LBT, yes, you can keep him. You’ve been good.
Asher, do you think KKK members, and/or computer nerds deserve a “safe space” free of FEMALES?
Asher, do you think KKK members, and/or computer nerds deserve a “safe space” free of FEMALES?
You don’t understand the way the world works. My three year old thinks he has a “right” to ice cream before dinner. I assure you, he does not. While I am no fan of Jeremy Bentham he nailed it when he called rights “nonsense on stilts”.
No one *deserves* anything. That’s just not the way the world works.
RE: Asher
On the other hand, your claim that “those people” you guys was mocking want a woman-free world *was* a lie, not intellectual dishonesty.
You weren’t here for Anthony Zarat. Or Meller. Oh, believe you me. We only wish we were being dishonest. It’d be so much nicer.
Asher, MRA’s and the more virulent nerdbros have no interest in women they can’t fuck or get to clean up for them. I do not offer this as scientifically proven fact, I offer it as observations made through listening to them go on ad nasuem. It is my considered opinion and a personal viewpoint.
I’m also quite aware that many many geeky/nerdy men do not want male only spaces and are very welcoming to women who share their interests. Mainly, because I had the good fortune of growing up with guys like that.
Why so pissed that I point and laugh at idiots when they behave like idiots? You can’t spend your life whining about how no one understands you and how aweful it is that no one shares your interests and then turn away people who do understand and/or share your interests because you don’t like what you presume they carry about in their pants.
Do you have a link to some post or comment where those individuals explicate the desire for a woman-free world?
Asher is incapable of answering a simple yes/no question.
RE: Asher
Can you cite examples?
I would, but you wouldn’t understand them.
No one *deserves* anything.
See? You don’t deserve examples anyway. But fear not. I’ll happily keep feeding you intellectual dishonesty because it’s half past one in the morning and I like you.