I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
The whole Chelsea Manning thing makes me so sad. From beginning to end.
Damn, ninjaed by MordsithJ/Scalzi
Aw, Neuroticbeagle posted such great pictures of Manboobzing kitties that my own kitty had to get in on the action. Here he is.
Oops, here he is: http://picturepush.com/public/13617666
I’m sorry–I certainly didn’t mean to pick on you! It’s totally fine to have an idea and not have time/ability/inclination to actually do it, and it’s totally fine to share that idea and see if anyone else is interested in doing it. Guys like Asher just act like they’re intellectual gods for having an idea.
Can I look at your outline to make it up to you?
All the kitties!
AND THEY ARE ALL DAVE.
That tabby in the fourth pic looks like he’s about to drop the banhammer. This is the last thing a troll sees before they are cast into the outer darkness …
OT, but has eBay just gone weird for anyone else?
I put together an Asher-English dictionary, if anyone’s interested.
Cassandra – I tried to link to it from an email just now, and yes, it had.
@ Kittehs
Probably a problem with their servers then, I was wondering if it was on their end.
Most likely, I would think. The link was okay, but their page wouldn’t load. I think it said the connection reset.
Funny, I never look at ebay, but just now a friend sent a link.
@ David Futrelle
The Klan is noted for extremist rhetoric??? Seriously? Is that really your defense of your analogy? Um, no, the Klan was noted for doing things like blowing up churches containing children, and countless lesser acts of aggressive violence. Even if the harassment you claim is something that most would agree as having an objective, i.e. not victim-perceived*, basis that is still a vast chasm from what the Klan did. The Klan invaded the private homes and property in a systemic and willful attempt to maintain rigid and systemic separation between white and black people. Not only did the Klan terrorize and assault black people but they also applied those tactics to white people who associated with black people. Whatever those geeks are doing, even if every claim made about them is correct, is completely unrelated to what the Klan did.
You analogy is still baseless and dishonest.
* If I am in a private conversation with a woman who tells me that she was harassed or raped I will sit and listen to her without dispute, However, at the point the question of “what is rape/harassment” becomes one of social and legal punishment that question is no longer about a specific event or how someone feels they were treated. At that point, men and women equally get a say in answering the questions of “what is rape?” and “how should it be punished?”. I also see feminists make hilarious claims like “men should teach men not to rape”. This is hilarious because the distribution of rape perpetrators is highly asymmetrical; non-rapists tend to hang with non-rapists and men who are rapists tend to hang with other rapists or men who engage in other criminal activities. I have never raped anyone and it is quite likely that I have not interacted for years with any man who has raped anyone. It’s not so much that everything feminists say is wrong but that so much of it is inane gibberish that it becomes impossible to draw any usage from what feminists say that is valuable.
Telling me that “men should teach other men to not rape”, for me, marks you as a fundamentally intellectually unserious person whose opinions and positions are a garbled mish–mash of incoherent nonsense, even were I to agree with some of them.
Asher, since you apparently have no reading comprehension at all, it’s pointless to discuss anything further with you.
@Katz Brilliant dictionary. The lols – I has’em.
@Asher You are a wilfully ignorant and hate-filled shitstain. Fuck off.
David
The problem isn’t with me. It’s with you. Your blind ideological zealotry justifies any tactic you think is useful in advances the causes you advocate. I’ve read and re-read every single explanation and justification for your analogy. They all fail. Miserably.
The problem isn’t with me, it’s with you. BTW, Godwin’s Law really needs to be expanded to include references to the Klan.
Oh, riiight, Asher doesn’t know any rapists. Asher also doesn’t read anything at all, ever, on just how prevalent rape is, or how rapists don’t actually go around with a warning label, or the rape culture that enables them. You are, in fact, demonstrating that you’re a rape apologist (a term I am quite sure you don’t understand in the least).
Go fuck yourself. You are, as titianblue just said, a willfully ignorant and hate-filled shitstain.
David, is it banhammer time for this scuzzbucket, or is he just in Moderation Purgatory?
See, DAvid, the problem isn’t with my reading comprehension but with your intellectual rhetorical dishonesty. When I point out your very blatant dishonesty your response is to accuse me of failing reading comprehension.
I have read The Critique of Pure Reason and have participated in graduate level research involving Kant and the applicability of some his work to modern social science. Now, either I can understand Kant but fail to understand a simple analogy or you are dishonest. Which, do you think, is the likelier explanation?
Oh, riiight, Asher doesn’t know any rapists. Asher also doesn’t read anything at all, ever, on just how prevalent rape is
It is frequent. It’s also very asymmetrical.
Asher thinks men should decide what rape is, what a surprise.
BANHAMMER.
hellkell, backup troll detector needed on the Real-world thread!
No, they should have an equal say! So if she says it was and he says it wasn’t then we call it a wash and bam, we’ve “solved” rape!
Sadly that pretty much does sum up how Dummie McDumberson thinks.
This is just willful ignorance at this point. Everybody who has paid any attention at all knows that the Klan, even after all that violence, keeps trying to sell themselves as the besieged minority, just in need of a safe place for white people.
I can’t imagine anybody being ignorant of that. Hell, the first time I read an article about the Klan, in Time magazine of all places, it was abundantly clear. Even back then, in my not-so-progressive days, it was obvious odious bullshit.
Also unsupported by all evidence. Never did read Meet the Predators when it got linked, did you, Asher?
Fuck.
Now I’m angry.
Deliberately changing the goalposts and refusing to accept the validity of a very obvious usage of English that remains perfectly valid? Telling women men ought to define rape?
There’s something WILLFUL in all this failure to understand. What was it Upton Sinclair said? “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” It appears to be equally hard to get a man to understand something when it might make him a FEMINIST or something.
All the UGH for Asher.
Asher thinks feminists (undefined, he knows them when he sees them) are combatants.
Combatants are, “fair game”.
Asher needs to leave.
Imagine the scene. Two men meet in Asher’s world…
“Hey, bro, are you a rapist?”
“Of course.”
“Me too! We should be buds.”
“Hey, bro, are you a rapist?”
“Of course”
“Well, I’ll have you know that I am not part of the criminal underclass. Away with you.”
“Hey, bro, are you a rapist?”
“Of course not”
“Aw, that sucks, I was about to ask if you wanted to watch the game.”
“Hey, bro, are you a rapist?”
“Of course not.”
“Cool. Hope you don’t mind me asking, I thought it was more polite than ‘steal any cars lately’.”
There’s a conversation on Pharyngula (yes, I have dipped my toe in the waters there!) about the eagerness of so many dudes to define rape and all those “grey areas”. There are some great comments.
(TW for rape discussion)
(That last part is very reminiscent of Trolly McTurderson.)
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/22/if-dr-phil-is-a-fraudulent-hack-is-it-ok-to-respect-his-opinions/comment-page-1/#comment-675712
As was pointed out in the same thread, all the rules-lawyering about what consent counts and what are the grey areas comes down to this:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/22/if-dr-phil-is-a-fraudulent-hack-is-it-ok-to-respect-his-opinions/comment-page-1/#comment-675598