I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
The thing that I console myself with is that they’re mad because they’re losing ground.
They’re mad at Anita Sarkeesian because she’s reaching people and they can’t shut her up. They’re mad about gay romance in games because it’s popular and selling well.
Their toys aren’t going away, but they’re worried that they’re going to lose their ability to be troglodytes in public without censure … and they’re right to be. It’s happening and it’s glorious. XD
And yes, the “nerds never engage in pointless displays of masculinity” thing. Because no sci-fi author would boast about how his man-musk made him irresistible to women, for instance.
It’s TRUE! I never finished Pride & Prejudice and I can’t stand Wuthering Heights! I thought Jude the Obscure was self-pitying horseshit and I don’t like George Eliot all that much!
I’VE BEEN FAKING IT ALL THIS TIII-HIII-HIIIIME! ::sobs::
I stayed up late one night trying to get this balance puzzle right in … Riven? I think? It involved setting iron, glass and wood weights on a balance so that you could have a roller-coaster bit. The roller-coaster was fun, but I admit I looked it up on GameFAQs after I woke up.
Myst 3. I only got it by trial and error.
These guys could just start their own, male only gamer clubs if they so inclined. Nobody, I believe, would give a fuck about a few exclusive to group X. Sure, they might seem kinda immature in the “no gurlz allowd” type of way, but I still think that the great majority would let them be.
The problem really is that they want the entire fucking gamer-sphere to be dudes only, as if it wasn’t hostile enough as it is to female gamers. All though I do believe the assholes are a so called vocal minority, the fact that a lot of the non-assholey people within the community are willing to just accept it as status-quo does make me sad.
The pinnacle of irony comes to play when the same dudes start crying that there aren’t enough “real” gamer girls around. Especially when the realness of said women is determined by these same fucknuts.
I’ve seen something similar go down in atheist circles too.
Being an asexual, agender, atheist, gamer, comic, b-movie and science geek, these sort of things are indeed quite the clusterfuck for me in my daily life. I’m just lucky to live in an environment where these sorts of problems are considerably lesser, at least to the point where me and most friends of mine have relatively little experience with this shit.
And I don’t even want to count the times when I’m just automatically assumed to be male online. And many people have assumed I’m a lesbian based on my appearance.
Doi hoi hoi o/
Seriously, any so-called “geek” dude who wants to imply that being treated like shit is something only girls do to guys in high school (or junior high or grammar school) can bite me and then go get lost. I have a memory.
Considering too that tickets to cons can rage from $30-$50 (or more?) plus are prone to long lineups and big crowds…these so called stuck up women are going to go through all that just to make fun of geek guys?
I don’t even think this jackass believes what he’s saying, it’s just an excuse to treat women at cons like crap and to look down on them and to keep them out of a clubhouse that isn’t even theirs.
Oh and of course, no girls in highschool ever face ridicule of cruelty from the opposite sex. Ever.
@lowquacks
hahaha! yes…send them there! 😛
Yeah a good chunk of MRA rants I come across basically amounts to “no girls allowed” its downright ridiculous, especially because no one is forcing them to even befriend geek/gamer girls… they can just ignore them if women existing bug them so much you know?
Ugh. Can we get a Manboobz “Only Misandry Allowed” Steam group going?
The problem is they want to have sex. So, they are angry because they hate women, but they want to have sex with them. And when women they find desirable don’t want to screw them….well, those “Fake Gaming Girls” are just cock teases and don’t actually care about gaming culture at all. And therefore it isn’t their personality, or their looks that make women not want them it is the fact that these women just want to torture them.
Makes sense now right?
Boy’s club mentality disguised as social justice advocacy. I’m shocked, I tell you.
“Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.”
Any reasonable person who says they love reading and books, fiction or non-fiction, is golden with me. <3
It’s kinda telling that when they talk about “safe spaces,” they mean sectioning off all of gaming as opposed to, say, a forum.
Ally S:
I’m shocked, shocked that gaming is going on in here! And yeah, the most nauseating thing is their attempt to cloak their bigotry in victimhood. It’s the most downright slimy way to act.
I think this metaphor can be extended beyond just gaming, to explain their tantrums in virtually all walks of life.
I never understood this “male safe place” argument – because…what do they need to be “safe” from? I’m pretty sure I’ve yet to come across a male commentator on YouTube who was threatened with murder and rape for expressing their opinion. Seems to me women who are into videogames or comics need more of a “safe place” considering it does happen to them frequently (not to mention all the harassment at conventions).
It certainly doesn’t help that the industries based around various creative mediums have catered to men disproportionately in comparison to women. So, of course, when this bias is brought up – it’s assumed by the most intellectually lazy that this is “just how it is”. As if women are just incapable of liking the same things as men, rather than the fact the people who produce the works are going in with a heavily biased assumption about the audience. Jim Sterling, as usual, describes this fallacy pretty well:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7161-Perfect-Pasta-Sauce
(I should note, however, that I don’t like Malcolm Gladwell in general – the guy’s a corporate shill.)
This idea that geek spaces are some sort of reprieve from male sexual stereotypes is such bullshit. It’s more of a “I don’t need your toxic masculinity. I’ll build my own toxic masculinity. With blackjack. And hookers.”
(Sorry for the Futurama reference.)
This might be really controversial, but…is anyone else not too fond of the idea of even legit ‘safe spaces’ for actually, in-real-life oppressed groups? I mean, obviously every space SHOULD be safe for members of those groups to express themselves and be taken seriously and not be abused….but couldn’t safety be achieved by having an openly stated zero-tolerance policy for assholery? (e.g. assholery like taking over the conversation, using abusive language, doing what some people call ‘mansplaining’, although that’s not a term I dig because men genuinely and politely explaining things they know about or believe can be great, I’d prefer ‘douchesplaining’ or something). I dunno, I kind of prefer the idea of a brother-and-sisterhood of all types of people of all races, all of whom have common goals of equality and justice in mind, all fighting the good fight regardless of their backgrounds, then a load of isolated ‘spaces’ that sort of perpetuate difference and help keep issues off the mainstream.
Don’t hate me!! I’m a good feminist I swear. That’s just one small thing in feminist-etc discourse that I kind of disagree with.
Even if you have a ” zero-tolerance policy for assholery” it doesn’t change the fact that folks are in fact judging you even if they aren’t saying it.
I doubt that telling someone that they can’t be a jerk will change the fact that they WILL be a jerk if they feel they have a moral/personal/ect objection to someone.
It ridiculous to ask those most at risk (for example trans individuals) to risk their safety because “every space should be a safe space”. Until such a time that discrimination is not a problem I don’t think we can ask oppressed groups to give up their “safe spaces”.
Well, it depends.
I mean, for an extreme example, take a shelter. That’s a safe space at the extreme end, where being kept separate from, say, half the population doesn’t seem so unreasonable at all.
I don’t think every space needs to be the same level of space, but I think there is a need for safe spaces.
And I like the term ‘mansplaining’ because it the gender part is important. It really is the privilege part that makes it click.
Reblogged this on Dissent of a Woman.
Girls have all the power in high school? What. Guia7ri seems to have forgotten about the existence of unpopular high school girls. We were ostracized just like you were… And not all ostracized high school girls are unattractive either. It more often results from a failure to share the popular fashion sense and interests of the time. So unless you went to the exact same high school as those “fake geek girls,” you have no real evidence they used to be “popular girls.” Even if they were popular girls, it doesn’t mean they are faking being geeks for “street cred” or something. Heck, they could actually be bitches and *still* be “real” geeks! Being a horrible person and being a geek are not mutually exclusive.
I’m pretty sure that guia7ri is referring to the overwhelming power teenage girls have to a) let a given dude do things at their genitals or b) not let a given dude do things at their genitals.
I really should have said “bodies,” I’m sorry. That was worded too explicitly.