I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
@Argenti:
Yeah… I generally imagine people who are sober. I’m glad you got out of that ok.
Other than deciding I had a bus pass and should use it at that hour instead of walking, despite the distance between their dorm and my apt being like a half mile, no big thing at all. Had he not been satisfied with that dollar though…(and it legit was all I had on me)
I only mention it at all because sober thinking criminals will play it safe, drunk or otherwise not thinking ones…do not fight, if they aren’t armed, then you can probably risk it, anything but a gun you can run if that’s feasible, but a gun? Give them what they want, nothing is worth the risk they’ll go from agitated to homicidal.
Pecunium, feel free to correct me on this one if I’m wrong.
Footnote: not doing the above does not make the results your fault
Asher stopped by the aliens’ space ship to pick up some unicorn food, only to discover that the aliens were throwing a party for everyone on campus. When Asher asked why he hadn’t heard about the party, the aliens explained that while they all liked him very much personally, he was only 1% tribal, and that was a problem for them.
Asher began a fascinating lecture on the philosophical implications of tribes as pertaining to exclusionary behavior and oppression. Unfortunately, he was only able to enlighten everyone for about 45 minutes, when suddenly the lights went off, the music stopped, and people remembered that they had to get a super early the following morning.
The aliens gave him a lifetime supply of unicorn food and told him that they were going to try fixing the ship on their own, so he didn’t need to come around anymore. Asher just laughed and shook his head. Who did those aliens think they were kidding? They were females.
This is a great story. I would go so far as to call it artistry! Someone will have to publish it somewhere, so that it is preserved for posterity. 😀
KITTENS!
Just in case nobody else said it already. ‘Cos we just don’t respond to KITTENS much here.
omgodtheyaresoadorable
“Something that explains everything explains nothing.”
Uh huh. I get now. He’s doing an impression of The Sphinx from Mystery Men.
Ok ok… I haven’t read the comment thread yet, but I was looking for a good place to post this and a thread about women/gaming seems appropriate, esp with ‘fake geek girl’ complaining going on.
Here’s a woman you’ve never heard of who not only made the first narrative films and revolutionized film in general, AND ran her own studio, she did it before women even got the vote. And she is not mentioned in film schools, or anywhere. HUGE film geek. Men have been pushing women out of their ‘safe’ spaces since, oh, forevers.
http://www.upworthy.com/youve-never-heard-of-her-but-shes-basically-one-of-the-most-important-women-in-movie-history?c=ufb1
I promise I will read the comments now. All… 930 of them. I’d best make some tea.
Dammit, I am only halfway done with my Stamen of Nerdly Privilege poster.
Tracy – make coffee. Strong coffee. You’ll need it to stay awake through the Troll of Boredom’s screeds.
Watch out for that chili plate! Don’t want to waste it if there aren’t any trolls around.
Great link, Tracy.
I’m not sure why, but after reading it I kept thinking about this comment thread about Kathryn Bigelow’s success with The Hurt Locker. There were some shit lords in the thread screaming to the high heavens that Cameron should have won Best Picture for Avatar, because, as one little mister put it — “She didn’t work as hard” as James Cameron.
It’s a certain subset that has to either explain away a woman’s successes with an “Oh she just lucky” attitude, or bio-truths like, “Women do well on tests because they’re good at remembering and repeating, like parrots.”
Devalue, devalue, devalue.
For some reason I’m hearing Captain Gooooooal-pooooooooost like Captain Caveman.
I remember CC but I don’t remember the Teen Angels.
Hah! Wiki says he had his own segment in a Flintstones spin-off in the late 80s where he adventured with his son. His son I remember.
Yeah, but I hated The Hurt Locker as a film. (I didn’t see it until well after the Oscars).
That’s cool pecunium, but how the hell could someone accuse Bigelow of not working as hard as Cameron unless they had the pleasure of being a crew member on both film sets?
Seriously. Liking the Hurt Locker isn’t the issue–I thought it was dull as hell, but I can see why it won, and she’s really friggin’ talented.
Another fantastic director is Michelle McLaren, who directs a lot of and some of the best episodes of Breaking Bad. I hope she has a long and excellent career.
You know what there’s none of (or none visible) in movies/TV? Women as Directors of Photography.
This needs to exist.
I can but try, m’lady cloudiah.
I have no dog in the fight about how hard a worker she is, I’ve not worked with anyone who can say. The end product on her film (and what I saw of the second, which I won’t watch, from clips etc. during the run-up to the Oscars) shows a competent director, who seems to have a decent grasp of what the public wants.
So there’s no, technical reason, to say she did/didn’t deserve the nods, or that a win would have been undeserved.
@Asher
Okay. I officially call bullshit.
Oh, lords, it was on a t-shirt it must be true! Dude, anyone makes the rules about what happens to their own body. This includes men. duh.
sigh.
OKay, though, dude, the world would be a shitty place for many, many men if they did not have the right to refuse sex from a woman. FFS.
Well, Asher, it’s not that hard…
I’m going to have to apologize to everyone who isn’t Asher but I just can’t stop laughing at this and I actually don’t have any idea why.
@Asher
Did you? Because I didn’t see any quotes in your clearly copy paste example…
I second the motion. I can’t believe I missed all this Asher… ::sigh:: He’s so…well, boring, but I like hanging out on manboobz with the rest of y’all.
Um, I’m confused? If we say women have been oppressed in history we’re going to say there’s been lots of other oppression in history? Am I getting that right? Because I think that’s kind of true…
And I”m posting this before word press eats it,all I can say is sorry for the incoherence/ my inability to label who I was responding to.
Wow… this thread has gone a long way… and I am not affiliated with this Asher at all. I hope you are reading this David.
First of all, I have Asperger’s syndrome. When I posted my first comments, I saw that the comments needed to be approved, so I thought you individually approved them (Aspies take things literally). That being said, I guess I’m not that smart (though I still claim to be very smart in certain areas).
“Also, my point about the Klan was not about violence but about rhetoric, and it was that the Klan’s rhetoric, when you look at the group’s history, has always been about PROTECTION, protecting allegedly beleguered whites (esp. white women) from evil … freed slaves/blacks, Catholics. Jews, etc. It’s been about casting white people — a relatively privileged group in society — as victims.”
I take it you don’t know what it’s like to be autistic. These privileged nerds have excellent social skills in addition to being great analytical thinkers. Social skills are VERY important in the hiring process and at work. I know a lot of people whom I have helped with schoolwork that got jobs much faster than me.
“While angry male gamers haven’t gone around physically harming female geeks, they’ve certainly harassed them plenty and engaged in violent rhetoric and threats towards them.”
Most of the “real” nerds that I was talking about are too busy defending themselves to even think of harassing because we are recieving flak from the more mainstreamed nerds of both genders. Maybe the people harassing female geeks are just normal people with nerdy interests, and not detached nerds like myself. Maybe they outright pretend to be nerds. But you haven’t done research on that.
Marie — after spending far too much of my day trying to tell him I got what I got out of what he said because it was right the fuck there >.<
You're making plenty of sense.
@Katz
Oh, Basement Cat, save us.
@Asher
Shorter Asher: TRYING TO CHANGE THINGS IS POINTLESS!
On the google search drama, I just want you guys to know if you search Marie is adorable (no quotes) you get 34 million search results, so there’s that.
Oh god I know I sound whiny but asher is soooo…tedios…..
@kirbywarp
yes yes yes yes. If only Asher would get this……….gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Anyway, QFT.
@Asher
FUck.fuck.fuck.fuck.fuck. Go away, fool. Political views does not one a ‘combatant’ make.
“solid basis in reality”
ahahahhahahahaha
hahahahahhahahahahahahhahah
HHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
Fool.
@hellkell
I’m noticing…
@Falconer
Yay! 😀 And they are adorable!!! 😀
@Asher
Cute definition you’ve got there.
@kiki
And that’s real XD
@katz
And his interesting take on the definitions of oppressed and bigotry (and others I may have missed while skimming). If he weren’t so fucking tedious I’d beg to keep him, promise to clean up, ect.
Yay the Dark Lord came!!!! 😀
@entropistanon
hey, you don’t need to argue with trolls, when I was here earlier I was just poking him XD
@Argenti Aertheri
I (personally) would also be really worried a knife, though I guess running would there, but I don’t trust myself running. Not very fast, not much endurance when running, ect.
Yay for me being understandable then 😀
And this got way longer than I intended too.
Even shorter Asher: “Fuck you, Jack, I’m okay.”
Assuming was telling the truth about being a parent, I feel really sorry for his child. Having a dead-inside parent is terrible.
@atdevel, People who are not neurotypical DO often experience discrimination, but it is because they are not neurotypical. Not because they like gaming, comics, or whatever.
“I (personally) would also be really worried a knife, though I guess running would there, but I don’t trust myself running. Not very fast, not much endurance when running, ect.”
Hence the “if feasible” 🙂
My point was that you should do what you think will give the best odds of survival, and fighting back against a gun is not good odds.
And that not non-combatant thing, combined with his bull about how by refusing to argue with people who think torture is justifiable I’m refusing to do the heavy lifting…*gags*