I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
OCCUPY MANBOOBZ!!
(not to denigrate the work of the actual Occupy movement)
And thanks, cloudiah, I think they’re getting cuter, too.
C’mon, guys, it was worth letting him stick around just for this.
FTFY
Because you’ve been so concise and you’ve achieved your objective so completely.
Did he finally go away? Please let him have finally gone away.
He might just be eating dinner… which reminds me. *loud growgling*
Or maybe he was posting while driving and then this happened. We can hope, can’t we?
As annoying as he was, I wouldn’t wish him a broken finger over it.
I don’t think Katz was wishing him a broken finger.
No, I was wishing him a trailer full of liquid manure.
Ahh.
…
Eww. 😛
Because this thread needs more kittens /smug
http://instagram.com/p/dVIly0F-0p/
http://instagram.com/p/dVINXxl-z5/
Fuck, it’s not that hard.
Active contributors?
Yes
Equal contributors?
No, legally defined as unequal.
Ergo: oppressed.
I wouldn’t bother, @chibigodzilla. Asher is doing the internet equivalent of sitting with his fingers in his ears while singing “I ‘m too sexy for my shirt” over and over again.
KITTENS!!!! Give them snuggles for me.
@chibigodzilla
Exactly. Also, I know that a lot of people sneer at the idea of false consciousness, but um, the fact that a woman doesn’t consider patriarchy oppressive towards women doesn’t change the fact that it is, in fact, oppressive. And I think women, even many non-feminist women, are far more aware of patriarchal oppression than some people presume. The fact that so many women live in fear of being raped because of our rape culture is an example of such awareness.
Kittens! And with that, this thread takes a sharp turn back to Good Things.
And the belated delivery of 1 internetz, giftwrapped & sprinkled with rose petals, for Inurashii
To sum up his position (I can’t call it argument): which is to explain why I am giving him the Ruby Treatment:
1: Until, and unless, avowed gamers/geeks actually kill feminists, they aren’t (any of them) engaged in terrorism.
2: Feminists are “combatants”.
Here is the thing, the bit that puts him beyond the pale:
Killing combatants isn’t terrorism. It’s a legitimate act in a war. Combatants are targets.
He’s just said he thinks killing “feminists” is acceptable.
Looking at the mishmash of temerity, stupidity, and cupidity, I cannot trust him to have a working definition of “feminist” any more consistent than his use of the phrase, “intellectual honesty”.
To take him at less than value would be unfair to all those whom I have taken at face value; so (as with Ruby), unless he admits to what he said, and can explain why he is 1: wrong, and 2: no longer believes this to be the case, the only thing to say to him is:
Asher, you’re posting too damn much, and what you’re posting is tedious. I’m putting you on moderation.
Also, my point about the Klan was not about violence but about rhetoric, and it was that the Klan’s rhetoric, when you look at the group’s history, has always been about PROTECTION, protecting allegedly beleguered whites (esp. white women) from evil … freed slaves/blacks, Catholics. Jews, etc. It’s been about casting white people — a relatively privileged group in society — as victims.
While angry male gamers haven’t gone around physically harming female geeks, they’ve certainly harassed them plenty and engaged in violent rhetoric and threats towards them.
Three cheers for David! =D
@Ally S:
I was watching the daily show recently, and one of the interviews was about the pervasive sexual abuse and rape going on with female soldiers. I recall a quote to the effect of “The rape they could handle, what really bothered them is fact that their superior officers didn’t support them.”
I don’t actively fear getting robbed at gun point (mostly because I’ve never really been around where such things happen). When I try to imagine it, it’s easy to be brave in my head because I imagine the threat of the law would keep the culprit from shooting me. Sort of a “You wouldn’t shoot me in this crowded area, you’d get attention drawn to you and be tried for murder.”
Your post and that interview suddenly made me realize that that’s part of what makes me very unafraid of gun violence. I’m confident in the law to do it’s thing. Sure, it won’t help against someone who wants to kill someone at any cost, but most criminals think the threat is enough. If murder were like rape, where I didn’t have any confidence in the justice system, I’d imagine I’d feel much more afraid.
For rape, the statistics are bad, but a culture where you can’t even rely on the justice system to take your rapist down makes it much worse.
“When I was in grad school I taught at a private tutoring service. One of my students was the son of the program manager of a local conservative talk radio station. His family received regular death threats and he spent his entire high school life being chauffeured around by bodyguards.
This is sort of what happens when politics turns into a winner take all power struggle and there’s precious little for me to do about it.”
There’s a problem with your analogy – since when is asking for equality comparable to a “winner take all power struggle”? By definition feminism is asking for a more equal and fair distribution of power.
Of course, you could just come out and admit that you recognize men hold more power in society than women and THEY’RE actually the ones that want to win and keep all the power. That would be cool.
Aw… I came into the fight too late! Not that it’s a bad thing. I’m not that great at arguing anyway.
@kirbywarp: “For rape, the statistics are bad, but a culture where you can’t even rely on the justice system to take your rapist down makes it much worse.”
There’s no truer statement. There’s a sort of hopelessness that’s inherent to the statistics about unreported rape – so many people who are raped know it’s not even worth it to go to the authorities because of the low, LOW chance that they’ll even do anything about it.
Pecunium — 3: torture is acceptable
I’m not sure how that fits into your framework, but I am not letting that go.
Kirbywarp — um…not to, uh…I was hm (pecunium, you remember this story right? Does it count as mugging,)…not at gunpoint but it was like 1 am or some shit like that. And he was piss ass drunk. The threat of arrest only applies to criminals with foresight, which, unfortunately, is not all of them (FTR, my question whether it really counts is I’ve been through so much worse and it cost me $1, seems like a trifle thing to me)