I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
“Male geeks”:”KKK” as “demanding safe spaces from women”:”demanding safe spaces from minorities”?
Cause that’d be hilarious and sad.
That’s one of two possibilities. Either David’s analogy implies that the Klan simply wanted “safe space” or that male geeks engage in the same sort of willful and systemic terror as the Klan. It’s either one or the other. The first makes sense within the context of the analogy (although the Klan certainly wanted more than safe space), and the second is blatantly false. Whichever way that David wanted it is still intellectually dishonest.
Please be joking. PLEASE.
“Male geeks”:”KKK” as “demanding safe spaces from women”:”demanding safe spaces from minorities”?
Cause that’d be hilarious and sad.
BTW, this is the tactic that the people defending the analogy are using to do so. If you have a problem with them then you need to take it up with them, not with me.
Personality, my politics involves breaking the US up into separate sovereign nations of maybe between 10 and 30 million people and allowing for a period of time where people can transition into a nation that best suits their particular moral sentiments.
If you split people into smaller groups, they magically start agreeing on everything.
This is indeed an edifying day at the School of Unmitigated Horseshit.
Yep, because social perceptions based on misconceptions have no role in creating stereotypes. They’re all grounded in reality somehow.
Okay, what caused those misconceptions? See, what you want to do is posit what you consider “misconceptions” as some ex nihilo ultimate cause. The reality is that what you label “misconceptions” are simply effects of prior causes – this, btw, directly relates to the discussion on free will. The implication is that those misconceptions are the product of free will and are chosen, whereas the effects of those “freely chosen misconceptions” are all then the effect of those freely chosen, ex nihilo causes.
If your explanation for the state of affairs of some group is “oppression” then the obvious question is “what caused that oppression”; no, seriously, it is intellectually dishonest to posit “oppression” as some uncaused ultimate cause.
I say we give Asher his own private island* to be a grouch on and the rest of us continue living together just like we do now.
* A very small one that nobody else wants.
@Ally S:
I don’t think Asher knows how to joke.
No. Those are not the only possibilities.
Here are yours:
1. The Klan was not a terroristic organization, it simply wanted to be insulated from minorities.
2. Male geeks engage in violence the same way the klan does.
Give me one good reason how you find evidence for either of these in the OP. I’ve taken a couple literature courses in my day, I’m fully comfortable with there being many interpretations of the same work. But wrong answers exist, and both of these are wrong.
Here’s the correct answer:
3. Both the klan and male geeks were priviliged groups. The absurdity of the klan demanding a “safe space” from the minorities they were bigoted against demonstrates how absurd male geeks demanding a “safe space” from the women they are bigoted against is.
Yes, good thing I didn’t say that (
The statement was unqualified and clearly implies it. With the exception of very rare individuals human beings don’t exercise power over each other solely for the sake of dominating them.
Power is an ability to affect – Thomas Hobbes
That’s all “power” is, the ability to produce an effect.
A bigot is someone who refuses to address opposing positions and arguments.
That was the Nazis’ biggest problem: refusing to address the arguments of the Jews. Damn those intellectually dishonest Nazis.
But that de jure matters. Because oppression (in this topic) is systemic.
This is just basically a clever way of rewording the argument to false consciousness. Women didn’t feel oppressed and were active contirbutors to their societies and relationships because … oppression.
You’re just reiterating your basic premise, not arguing for it.
titianblue:
KITTIES!
Also, Pompous McBLoviator sure loves a debate. He’s a mass debater.
Btw, the in my previous post I forget the “@Asher” just before the quote box. Just to clarify.
@Asher:
I’m not reading them, it’d be too much to read. I’ll drop this when you stop saying that David thinks male geeks and the clan are the same.
Asher, you should ask for a refund for your “schooling”. While you’re at it, use that refund to purchase yourself a dictionary. You can look up bigot and hypothesis in the same book.
I don’t. You’re making that assumption about me. Stop making baseless assumptions about people’s arguments.
(Just waiting for Asher to say that yes, the Nazis’ intellectual dishonesty was in fact their biggest problem.)
@Asher:
“Power” the word does not have one definition. There are others that use the same word in useful ways. For instance, when you say “this group has power over this group.” Your narrow definition makes the statement nearly a tuatology, when in fact it is describing a useful phenomenon.
Asher can’t be bargained with. Asher can’t be reasoned with. Asher doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And Asher absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead of boredom. Or until David bans him. Has anyone emailed the collection of cats and ferrets in a people suit that we call David?
@Kiki:
Well, Asher did say this before:
So… I actually wouldn’t put it past him.
Yup.
Nope.
Nope.
Weak barb braw
Asher can’t be bargained with…
“Come with me if you want to live. But first you have to prove that living is epistemologically more valid than not living. And that there is indeed such a construct as ‘me’. And why did everyone laugh when I said ‘come’?”
I read that in Arnold’s voice. It was glorious.
cloudiah: I emailed the ferrets in a David suit.
AshBot:
Of course you do, cupcake.
I suppose I ought to have done that rather than just yell
BANHAMMER BANHAMMER BANHAMMER
and quote him and link those quotes to pies.
Meh.
But sometimes it’s just fun to yell BANHAMMER BANHAMMER BANHAMMER.
Also, your babies are still cute, Falconer. They actually seem to be getting cuter.