I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
I missed it. Who’s Petey?
Dude, everyone is the gatekeeper of whether they have sex because that’s how consent works. Fool.
^to you.
titianblue: They all have their little tells. I guess this is another of my superpowers like remembering combinations, pin numbers, and phone numbers from way back.
Technically that was directed at me, as he was quoting me, but seeing how I’ve already emailed pecunium regarding my inability to deal with this shit today…*grabs some popcorn*
First though, because I’m just that much of a masochist…
Where to motherfucking begin. How about the part where torture “light” is still fucking torture. How there’s a very solid definition of what torture is (which I await pecunium explaining to you). How about how rules such as the Geneva convention use that definition and by any logic waterboarding falls under it? How about how we waterboarded far more people than those who “masterminded the killing of tens of thousands of unarmed civilians”. And how even if we had limited it to those people, we’d still be debasing ourselves by violating the rules and laws we’ve sworn to uphold?
So yes, I start with the conclusion that long established conventions defining war crimes are in fact a sound basis of argument. And you continue to be repulsive, repugnant and revolting.
Complimenting your gatekeepers may indeed make them more likely to want to have sex with you (unless your bloviating has already put them to sleep, that is).
“You aren’t a true rock climber until you have sex with other rock climbers.”
I rock climb but it’s silly to think that rock climbing is central to my identity in the same way that it is central to the identity of male tech geeks. BTW, having been to rock climbing gyms I’m pretty sure that committed rock climbers tend to be more likely to be having regular sex with other rock climbers than with a random representative of the population.
In other breaking news from Asher, one is more likely to have sex with people they hang out with, in comparison to random people (okay that was phrased awkwardly). The shock! The wit! I can’t handle it!
PS Asher aren’t you going to tell me about my sexuality yet?
“Complimenting your gatekeepers may indeed make them more likely to want to have sex with you (unless your bloviating has already put them to sleep, that is).”
In my household, the Geologist is the gatekeeper of sex. I find he responds well to jokes about rocks and hammers.
PPS, Zombie Marie mode activated, just because.
Our whole society was created by and is maintained by scientists,
Science of the sort you are describing is only possible because of the massive advancements in social institutions that have occurred over the past couple of thousand years, mainly in Europe. The science you are talking about is a late stage development in civilization and not its precondition.
Oh let’s have some more dancing goalposts and intellictual dishonestly! There’s a huge difference between the implication that “real” geek girls have to have sex with geek guys to be geeks and the statement that members of a group are more likely to have sex with members of the same group.
I love how the linguistic skills deteriorate as he gets more flustered. Note that rock climbing is now central to the identity of male geeks, and rubbing people with pleasantly skin-soothing “salves” is now a crime against humanity.
“Ensalved” is my favorite typo of the day.
*intellectual
Spell check, how does it work?!
hahahahahahahhaaha
hahahahahahahhahahahahahahha
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
You poor thing. Learn2history.
“Lesbians tend not to have much sex; it’s called “bed death”. Testosterone is *the* sex hormone and lesbian relationships tend not to have enough of it to sustain a sex life – there are, of course, exceptions.”
I don’t even know where to begin with this. This and the “gatekeeper” remark. He really wants to live in a world where women just don’t want sex.
They don’t just do them for the sake if doing them *eyeroll*.
Publish or perish, anyone?
My father is elderly now but before he retired he was a nuclear chemist (his
The concept of the role of a scientist has changed *a lot* in just the past several decades. Watson and Galton were interested in truth. Jared Diamond? Not so much.
You use applied science every day of your life and you’ll continue to do so as long as there are scientists to expand and maintain it.
I enjoy being able to browse my favorite blogs via my Samsung Galaxy but the engineers who developed it are not interested in truth (no, that doesn’t make them bad people). Putting out new gadgets or improved methods of farming is engineering, not science.
@Asher
Fascinating definition there, bub. So what is science, if you’ll tell us.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…
It’s really that simple. It’s what feminism is all about, and it’s why a lot of men are against it. They want to continue oppressing women
Throughout history, most men have not oppressed most women. People who are oppressed have no incentive to contribute to the well-being of a society in which they reside. However, women have, generally, contributed to the societies in which they lived, therefore, women haven’t been oppressed.
It’s really that simple. The idea that a peasant farmer’s wife was “oppressed” because the people with the formal titles involved with establishing societal rules were men is inane.
Well, I’m late to the party but…
@atdevel: Dude, subcultures are fractally nested, get over it.
@asher:
Aa-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Doesn’t make it right. Would this be an appeal to authority? Ah, looked it up, it’s an Appeal to Tradition.
Ah, so Mr. Intellectual Honesty wants us to accept his speculation as a valid argument.
And the male geeks in question do not simply want to have picnics with other male geeks. They follow it up with harassment and assholery.
Bwa-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Also, lemme rewind a bit to this:
Once again, just because it’s been done before, by many people, doesn’t make it reasonable. Another Appeal to Tradition.
It does involve terrorising target groups.
Where does geek culture involve willful and systemic terrorizing of others? Be specific. Cite examples, because willful and systemic terror was the core identity of the Klan – that’s what it was all about.
“It’s really that simple. The idea that a peasant farmer’s wife was “oppressed” because the people with the formal titles involved with establishing societal rules were men is inane.”
Oppression based on gender cannot exist because oppression based on class does exist!
Someone needs a dictionary. Luckily I always have one handy, being that there are multiple versions online. Merriam-Webster fan myself.
science noun
1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2a: a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study
b: something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge
3a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
b: such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
4: a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws
Yeah, please do explain how philosophy is the only science. You’ve excluded everything else anyone says, or qualified it as “not sufficient”.
“Argument and demonstration. What the “citations please” crowd does is leave out the argument part.”
“Cite examples”
No comment.
Curses, I tempted the blockquote monster and was devoured