I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
He doesn’t even understand how we acquire knowledge. This kid needs to shut up.
Also, Asher, please tell me about my sexuality. Do I lose my desire for sex when I start dating another girl, or do I not have any to begin with? Do straight women want more sex, or do they only put up with it because straight men want sex? Do bi women have more sex with men than women when they date them? Where do non-binary persons fall in this? Trans* people? Please enlighten us, with your infinite wisdom.
/sarcasm because I don’t think trollboy would recognize it if I didn’t label it.
Ah yes, science was so much better about a thousand years ago, before Ibn al-Haytham, aka Alhazen, insisted that hypotheses could only be considered truth if backed by quantifiable evidence.
Of course quantifiable evidence is an advance. However, what has happened is that solely focusing on quantifiable evidence has pushed science into the “gotta get is peer reviewed” morass we have today. Quantifiable evidence is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for truth.
“Like a three year old, who just discovered “why”.”
Nawh, I did that until I was like 5 and learned quite a bit that way. Mostly because I did actually care about the answer (and wow, I haven’t gone all “but why?” on you?!)
Trolly is arguing with Pecunium about torture *fetches popcorn and pulls up comfy chair*
While it’s technically possible that somewhere in the world there’s a person less interesting than Asher, I’m going to need to see some objective evidence.
@titanblue
Seconded.
He sounds EXACTLY like that Petey asshole from a few months ago.
Katz: There’s a number! It’s SCIENCE!
Did you notice it’s the inverse of 99 percent.
Oooh, hatred of peer review – now for which troll was that a tell?
Asher: Your statement is an excellent expression of nihilism and betrays a hatred of life.
I thought you weren’t doing anything to ascribe motive, or “thoughts behind” but merely addressing the facts in the words.
How the facade crumbles when the arguments fail.
(btw this would have been more funny if you’d said something like, “such a level of disgust with the very essence of humanity show an almost dali-esque nihilism which borders on Neo-Dadism)
Reading some of the shit that trolls post here has given me so much more respect for college professors. Can you imagine having to grade dozens of essays that read like that? It’s amazing that more of them don’t go postal.
Asher: observation is what takes place after conjecture
Nope. Experiment is what happens after conjecture.
Wallace and Darwin didn’t hypothesise evolution by means of natural selection, and then go looking for it. They saw it, and then wondered at it, then went looking for more evidence.
Nice try, but full of fail.
who said anything about the “fall of civilization”?
You, when you said that societies which fail to recognise an inherent difference between men and women are doomed to fail.
Which is not the same thing as the fall of civilization. The first is both a death of something and a hopeful new start. The latter, not so much.
I see, so you favor civilisations collapsing (because they are transitory) but “Society” is some sort of Platonic Ideal?
America isn’t one society but an empire comprised of many different societies.
Could you phrase that in English. Also could you explain to me, if there are, “many societies” why one of them (or many, or all) collapsing is so bad, because if there can be many, new ones can be created from the rubble of those which have collapsed (intellectual rigor, you should try it sometime).
Wow. It’s staggering to think of your intellectual prowess.
titianblue: it was Petey.
@cassandrasays
No! DOn’t make me imagine it! ::quakes in fear:: XD
the one who submits to argument and demonstration,
Argument and demonstration. What the “citations please” crowd does is leave out the argument part. What commenters on blogs such as this tend to do is accept vaguely held notions of what is generally accepted and only deviate from it if they see something from a peer-reviewed journal.
The only difference between yourselves and the people who Al Hazen was critiquing is that for the latter group the “ancients” were Plato and Aristotle, whereas your “ancients are Noam Chomsky and Andrea Dworken. Not all blind adherence to “the wisdom of the ancients” is equally daft.
I don’t remember Petey. It’s the wall of blah effect kicking in again.
Zombie Dworkin (note the spelling, Ash) ACTIVATED!!!
He’s still here? Wow.
Aren’t you supposed to wait till someone dies before you start referring to them as one of the ancients? It seems more polite.
Sounds like a Petey. I’m waiting to be called a bitter bitch again.
@Hellkell
So should we all activate evil feminist zombie mode? Cuz I can do thatXD
According to your logic, the enslavement of a group must necessarily be counter-balanced by some positive thing the enslaved group has.
Um, no. Most ensalved peoples weren’t eventually emancipated and mass enslavement usually resulted in a people’s disappearance. Notice that my reference to “eons” indicates a long term equilibrium. Sure, when you have two distinct people’s involved in one social space short-term disequilibrium is possible.
Now, care to offer the male gatekeeping function that is the compliment to the female one as gatekeepers of sex?
Yeah, but if you’re 19 and full of shit like Asher, everyone’s ancient you .
@hellkell, and you ninja’d me. How do you remember them all? They all blur together for me.