I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
LBT – you got disability? Yaaaaaaaay yayayayayayayayayyay. 8D Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled chewtoys; I hit that and hand to do a little virtual dance.
So, the problem with modern psychology is that it doesn’t allow for a simple-minded, reductionist approach which ignores environmental, cultural, and societal factors in the manifestation of behavior?
The problem with lots of modern science is that it is not interested in truth but, merely, in verifiable laboratory experiments.
“If one group has all of X, another group must have all of something else.” HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT LOGIC?
“The problem with lots of modern science is that it is not interested in truth but, merely, in verifiable laboratory experiments.”
Is that truth with a capital T? 😀
Arbitrarily? Do you really even understand what modern psychology is?
I do. And probably much better than you. Many (most?) research psychologists are deluded about what it is they do and how it fits into overall human understanding.
You guys remember that other day when we were talking about those kids who would get mad when they failed science tests because they totally understood the concepts, they just couldn’t do the actual calculations?
They also all think that puppies are cute. Buncha morons.
“If one group has all of X, another group must have all of something else.” HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT LOGIC?
Because we’re not comparing two completely different things, like oranges and women. Male and female human begins have cooperated with each other for eons to produce what they see. Law of gender parity: men are no better than women, or vice versa and what one brings to the table the other brings as a compliment.
Now, I ask you, again, what is the complimentary gatekeeping function that is male to the gatekeeping of sex function that women have?
they failed science tests because they totally understood the concepts, they just couldn’t do the actual calculations?
Lab experiments are invaluable but, by themselves, they are not science.
I would also point out that the question of “what is science” is exclusionary and excludes that which is not science. Identity = exclusion.
“I do. And probably much better than you. Many (most?) research psychologists are deluded about what it is they do and how it fits into overall human understanding.”
What exactly do they think they do? I’d like to know what you believe their position to be. I think it will be quite funny as I have met plenty of researchers.
Please tell us. Please do.
Neither is sitting on your bum and bloviating about how all psychologists are wrong, duder.
I’ll bear that in mind if I ever start identifying as science.
It’s been quite a while. Why do I get the feeling we’re about to get a wall of drivel?
What exactly do they think they do?
Produce lab experiments.
Look, at the point that scientists decided that science wasn’t a branch of philosophy it began the slide to the state of being nothing more than lab experiments.
“Produce lab experiments.”
Well the answer is incomplete, but let’s do some housekeeping for clarity. When you say produce, do you mean design or conduct experiments?
That whole wait for three words. I am disappoint.
(And did a lab experiment kill your father or what?)
Well the answer is incomplete
… which should be followed by an explanation of how it is incomplete.
do you mean design or conduct experiments?
Both
Troll logic and Fox News logic have a lot in common.
Is anyone getting a whiff of sock with this one? I know there aren’t any obvious tics, but that whole fixation with “intellectual dishonesty” just has something familiar about it. The misogyny’s familiar, of course, but that’s why trolls come here anyway, so it doesn’t help. Does anyone think we’ve a MRAsherL visiting?
Notice how much of what the people who are arguing with me say involves speculation on me, personally, or predictions of what I’m about to do? I, on the other hand, strictly stick to what they are saying.
“Look, at the point that scientists decided that science wasn’t a branch of philosophy it began the slide to the state of being nothing more than lab experiments.”
Wrong again. They can do experiments in the field! Can you believe what these scientists do?
I use the term “lab experiments” to denote that scientists are no longery concerned with truth and have decided to that science isn’t a branch of philosophy. It’s shorthand.
“I use the term “lab experiments” to denote that scientists are no longery concerned with truth and have decided to that science isn’t a branch of philosophy. It’s shorthand.”
Is that truth with a capital T again?