I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
RE: katz
I have a spreadsheet on my computer that I used to calculate a recipe for homemade kitten formula with the optimal amino acid balance for cats.
I like you. I like you very much.
RE: Asher
By this standard parents shouldn’t much care whether their child turns out to be the person who discovers the cure for cancer or turns out to be the next Charles Manson, yet, most parents very much care about the difference between those two outcomes.
Wait, what? I seriously have no idea where you got this from.
Your statement is an excellent expression of nihilism and betrays a hatred of life.
…
*snrrrrrrk*BWAAHAHAHAHAHA. I love you, man, never leave. *tousles your hair*
Okay, here’s the thing I don’t get. I see this pattern enacted in every group you can name–multis, trans folks, queers, EVERYONE. What I don’t understand is what the big deal is.
Clearly, human beings are hardwired to be somewhat tribal, with a standard distribution. Here’s the thing, I, personally, am not a very tribal person; if there was some metric I would probably be in the one percent least tribal. That said, tribalism is an evolved feature of human psychology so you’re just going to have to deal with it. It took me a long time to understand why everyone like me personally but I didn’t really fit in anywhere: most people are much more tribal than I.
Whaaa appropriation. Because the geek label only belongs to men, right?
Says the guy who was quoting Nietzsche five seconds ago. You really don’t listen to yourself, do you?
“observation is what takes place after conjecture. No conjecture, no science.”
Hypothesis and conjecture are not interchangeable terms in the discipline of psychology.
A scientist must observe the natural world before forming a hypothesis. The evidence collected from further observation is part of the study.
RE: CassandraSays
But he thinks I’m a nihilist! That’s AMAZING! Or maybe it’s just that it’s absurdly late and I’m high on sleep-dep.
Wait, what? I seriously have no idea where you got this from.
If life is absurd then every instance of life is equally absurd. If all possible outcomes for one’s child is equally absurd then there’s no reason one should prefer their child turn out to be a great humanitarian or a mass killer.
There’s a number! It’s SCIENCE!
RE: katz
You really don’t listen to yourself, do you?
I think the answer to that is overwhelmingly obvious.
If you’re finding this guy in any way entertaining I think you need to get some sleep ASAP. Either that or this has been the most boring week ever so far. Now I’m worried about you!
A scientist must observe the natural world before forming a hypothesis.
All hypotheses occur in the context of things we already know. While hpotheses and conjectures may not be interchangeable in psychology there is no psychology without conjecture, or any other science, for that matter.
“If X is Y, then every instance of X is equally Y.” You call that reasoning?
“If mice are small, then every mouse is equally small.”
“If cake is delicious, then every piece of cake is equally delicious.” (Even the middle piece with less frosting.)
“If the internet is a good timesuck, then every site on the internet is an equally good timesuck.”
Cassandra, would you find him more entertaining if we steered him back into the “downfall of civilization” rut?
@ katz
Tribalism is clear a human trait. It also clearly has a normal distribution, like height does. I am less tribal than the vast, vast majority of people I meet. The exact number doesn’t matter for it to be science.
See, science, properly understood, is a branch of philosophy and those lab techs aren’t scientists, but just bureaucrats who are really good at conducting lab experiments.
“All hypotheses occur in the context of things we already know. While hpotheses and conjectures may not be interchangeable in psychology there is no psychology without conjecture, or any other science, for that matter.”
Conjectures are not testable. Hypotheses are. I am stating that the entire discipline of evo psych is based on conjecture.
I’m sorry you are too unfamiliar with the language of the field to understand the distinction.
Can you give him a personality transplant? That might help.
who said anything about the “fall of civilization”?
RE: Asher
If life is absurd then every instance of life is equally absurd. If all possible outcomes for one’s child is equally absurd then there’s no reason one should prefer their child turn out to be a great humanitarian or a mass killer.
Wow. I meant ‘life’ as in how we experience it, not the VALUE of human of life. I think human life is valuable. I just think that sometimes the lives we lead are awfully funny and absurd. It’s very tiny, and very important, and very painful, and very funny, and really, it’s just an amazing thing.
It’s not pretentious because it’s true! (Also, you have not earned the right to the phrase “properly understood,” duder.)
Conjectures are not testable. Hypotheses are. I am stating that the entire discipline of evo psych is based on conjecture.
Psychology is just as based on conjecture as is Ev Psy. The very method of induction is a conjecture. This is not a new concept.
(Also, you have not earned the right to the phrase “properly understood,” duder.)
That “right” is “earned” by making better arguments than the other guy.
RE: Asher
See, science, properly understood, is a branch of philosophy and those lab techs aren’t scientists, but just bureaucrats who are really good at conducting lab experiments.
And you thought I hated life. Oy vey.
RE: CassandraSays
If you’re finding this guy in any way entertaining I think you need to get some sleep ASAP. Either that or this has been the most boring week ever so far. Now I’m worried about you!
I probably am very sleep-deprived. But I can’t leave now! What if Asher says something AMAZING? He’s already claimed science is philosophy, doesn’t like puppies, and accused all of us of intellectual dishonesty. I’M RIVETED.
Also, I have not had a very funny week, between the SSI, another not-fun email from our father, and playing Dear Abby for another teenager on DA. (Though this one wanted to self-induce dissociative multiplicity because they thought a headmate would be more trustworthy than a corporeal person. HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU BUDDY BUT THAT IS SO WRONG.)
Like I said.
Guys, who’s more obnoxious and disingenuous – Joe or Asher? I vote Joe, still, but Asher’s pretty damn close.
“Psychology is just as based on conjecture as is Ev Psy.”
Psychological study, as it pertains to behavior, is based on making a observations and forming a testable hypothesis. Then testing it.
You are confusing conjecture and hypothesis.
Where in this explanation are you tripping up?