I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
RE: Asher
Yes, I’m well aware that women have usually supplemented their husband’s income.
Queen Cleopatra would like a word with you. So would Sojourner Truth. Seriously, buddy, she made a speech on this a hundred and fifty years ago.
And my mother supported my father through his doctorate. I have single/divorced aunts. ‘Supplemented his income’ my ass.
Citation sorely, sorely needed buddy. My sister took being a nerd more seriously than I EVER did.
Ah, yes, the “citation needed” hand waving evasion, like there is some “expert” on nerd-dom in the sense that a physicist is an expert in physics. As men get older they shift from reading fiction to reading non-fiction, and I suspect that historical sci fi is a type of fiction that tends to push the same intellectual buttons as non-fiction does. Reading is a huge part of my personal identity, it just doesn’t involve any fiction.
Does your sister also read a lot of stuff like science and philosophy? Does she like to tinker with cars or gadgets?
@ LBT
Those anecdotes are entirely true. They are also completely orthogonal that women and men have always, on average, played significantly different roles in society.
Totally not vague and baseless at all.
The number of humans who do not believe in a just world theory could probably be counted by the number of electrons in a helium atom.
Apparently, against all known laws of physics, one such electron is sentient and named Asher.
Can’t we have more interesting trolls? This latest crop is so dull.
All that analogy does is compare the racist exclusionary attitude of the KKK to the sexist exclusionary attitude
Which is why the analogy was intellectually dishonest. The KKK were not merely white people who wanted picnics only with other white people. In analogy the facts of the respective objects have to be similar.
For the anaology to have been intellectually honest rhetoric the male geeks would have to be running around terrorizing people. BTW, identities *are* exclusionary; that *is* what they do. If you claim that you are not an exclusionary person then you are saying that you lack identity.
No identity, no entity – WVO Quine
BAWWWW some women aren’t nerds in the way that some male nerds approve of! Not making “nerd” a central part of one’s identity is definitely something for others to whine about constantly!
Cry me a fucking river.
The number of humans who do not believe in a just world theory
That’s odd. A very large segment of Nietzsche’s writing is dedicated to dismantling the notion of a “just world”. I’m pretty sure he’s still read for a reason.
RE: Asher
Ah, yes, the “citation needed” hand waving evasion, like there is some “expert” on nerd-dom in the sense that a physicist is an expert in physics.
Gee, that sounds totally intellectually honest there.
As men get older they shift from reading fiction to reading non-fiction, and I suspect that historical sci fi is a type of fiction that tends to push the same intellectual buttons as non-fiction does.
I have no idea how this relates to anything, and as a man who reads nonfiction AND historical sci-fi… I read them for very different reasons. Hell, I like Wells and Verne and Burroughs as much as the next guy, but I don’t read them with the intent of being educated.
Does your sister also read a lot of stuff like science and philosophy? Does she like to tinker with cars or gadgets?
My sister’s dead. But before she died, she liked books on anatomy, neurology, and she once completely took apart a Nintendo with a screwdriver and put it back together again. Why do you ask?
women and men have always, on average, played significantly different roles in society.
That’s not the claim you made. You claimed that women didn’t work, which is bollocks. Trying to distract me is pretty dishonest of you.
He was comparing a certain aspect of the KKK group with a certain aspect of these particular nerds. He didn’t bother comparing both groups wholly. The fact that the KKK engages in terrorist tactics is irrelevant.
RE: CassandraSays
Can’t we have more interesting trolls? This latest crop is so dull.
Are you kidding? I love this guy! Whaddaya wanna bet he’s Pell again, having just learned a new vocabulary word?
BAWWWW some women aren’t nerds in the way that some male nerds approve of!
Uh, that’s how identities work. What do you think all of the “Uncle Tom” rhetoric is all about when used to speak of black people who vote Republican. “Keep it real” is an exclusionary statement, implying that those who do differently have a different identity.
Not making “nerd” a central part of one’s identity is definitely something for others to whine about constantly!
Um, arguing over identity has been a ubiquitous activity for our species. And that you label on of the arguing groups as whiners, but not other groups, makes you intellectually dishonest. I mean if it is “whining” for one group to argue about the meaning of their identity then it is “whining” for all groups to do so.
You don’t understand why puppies are cute. This is a very basic concept.
I read philosophy, and physics and politics and chemistry. Always have. What’s your point Asher?
And I’d like a citatation that mens inerests in reading materials changes significantly as they grow older. At what age does this occur?
Also, women don’t just “supplement” their husbands wages. Many many women are the sole breadwinners equal partner in bringing home the bacon in their families and that has largely been the case for much of history
This…may actually be the first troll we’ve had who insists that evo psych is the only type of psychology.
Whaddaya wanna bet he’s Pell again,
You know I have been “identified” as hundreds of different commenters on dozens of different websites over the years. Funny thing is, my first name is Asher and that’s the only handle under which I’ve commented since the start of the internet.
One thing is that people have discernible speech patterns that give them away and I’m quite certain that this “Pell” guy has a manifestly different pattern than have I. This, btw, is also just more intellectually dishonest rhetoric. Notice, that the only thing I do here is directly address what someone has said. I don’t speculate or impute things that people don’t say – that is the essence of intellectual honesty.
Also, I’m a guy, and I read fluffy gay romance and children’s books. Oh, and I write speculative fiction devoted to the psychological component of the bizarre and otherworldly. Buuuuuut I don’t fuck nerd/geek girls, so I guess I’m not truly a nerd/geek man.
This…may actually be the first troll we’ve had who insists that evo psych is the only type of psychology.
Every *thing* that exists has a prior cause. If you don’t think evolution is the cause of human psychology then you’re going to have to explain where human psychology comes from. It doesn’t work to say “culture” or “society” because I’m just going to ask you where those came from.
RE: katz
This…may actually be the first troll we’ve had who insists that evo psych is the only type of psychology.
I’m really curious what he thinks of multiplicity. I mean that totally earnestly too.
@Asher
Note: calling people intellectually dishonest constantly doesn’t make you sound smart. It makes you sound like a pretentious dipshit.
My basic point is that becoming indignant about the fact that not everyone is a nerd in the same way others are is absurd. It’s the nerd subculture, FFS. There is no “right” way to be a nerd, and anyone who wants to impose a standard of nerdiness on others is just pathetic.
“Science is nothing more than the explanation that best fits, explains and predicts the observable facts. When you address a subject in terms of cause and effect every cause is, itself, the effect of a prior cause. Any really scientific “human psychology” involves massive chains of cause and effect extending back into long before recorded history.”
Because you cannot observe human beings before recorded history you cannot conjecture about their behavior in any scientific way.
You don’t understand why puppies are cute.
Wide eyes. Soft features. Humans are programmed by evolution for those things to elicit an emotional response.
RE: Ally
Note: calling people intellectually dishonest constantly doesn’t make you sound smart. It makes you sound like a pretentious dipshit.
No, it makes him HILARIOUS.
Because you cannot observe human beings before recorded history you cannot conjecture about their behavior in any scientific way.
Sure you can. You are arbitrarily restricting science to controlled lab experiments.