I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
I mean, atdevel pretty much said that the test of whether or not a woman was a real nerd was did she sleep with him. If she didn’t, she was a fake nerd.
Do you denounce atdevel, Asher?
LBT, I will go to sleep happy knowing that you have Asher well in hand. XD
Asher, MRA’s and the more virulent nerdbros have no interest in women they can’t fuck or get to clean up for them.
Men and women, on average, are very different creatures, and a society that does not grasp this is doomed for collapse. What you attribute to MRAs is a rhetorically dishonest way of referring to how people lived in much of human history. Men went to earn outside the home, while the women raised the children, managed the house and, sometimes, had a part-time side job; they got together and made children. What you call “fuck and … clean up for them” has been a pretty standard model of human life throughout most of history.
RE: cloudiah
Do you denounce atdevel, Asher?
Even if he doesn’t, I WILL! 😀
Seriously, today was my day of celebrating getting disability, and this is the best trollpresent I could ever have.
Asher is incapable of answering a simple yes/no question.
I refuse to answer yes/no questions that are rhetorically dishonest.
Men and women, on average, are very different creatures, and a society that does not grasp this is doomed for collapse.
Heehee… you guys want to tell him, or should I?
I mean, atdevel pretty much said that the test of whether or not a woman was a real nerd was did she sleep with him. If she didn’t, she was a fake nerd.
There is some logic to that position. Logically, people come together for sexual relationships on the basis of wider shared interests. If nerd-dom is such a defining identity then a woman isn’t probably a nerd if her sexual activities don’t involve cavorting with nerd men.
What I suspect is that for men who identify themselves as “nerds” the identity is a huge part of who they are but for lots of women who adopt the label it is nowhere near as central to their identity. I can see why men who make nerdiness a central part of their identity would be irritated by people to whom it is not central to their identity appropriating that label.
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Heehee… you guys want to tell him, or should I?
Hmm, let me guess. You’re one of those liberal-creationists who doesn’t believe that evolution plays any role in patterns of human behavior.
>completely distorts david’s analogy
>accuses him of being intellectually dishonest
Shiggy diggy doo >_>
Aw, Asher hon, I liked you better when you were talking about small children. 🙁
“Hmm, let me guess. You’re one of those liberal-creationists who doesn’t believe that evolution plays any role in patterns of human behavior.”
More likely someone who has a basic understanding of human psychology and the problems with attributing all behavior disproportionately to biology.
completely distorts david’s analogy
I distorted nothing. The analogy was intellectually dishonest. It uses the standard emotional disgust that normal people have for the Klan and tries to transfer that emotional disgust to male geeks via dishonest rhetoric.
Analogies can be intellectually dishonest.
Asher is clearly NOT a history nerd, or he would know that historically, the majority of women have worked outside the home, have owned their own businesses etc, ect.
No, seriously dude the 1950’s was only a decade long and intellectually dishonest in showing a lifestyle most americans couldn’t afford (having a stay at home mom).
Hey LBT, do these jeans make me look intellectually dishonest? Or just fake geeky?
RE: Asher
liberal-creationists
THAT’S MORE LIKE IT! But anyway, to your statement.
Hmm, let me guess. You’re one of those liberal-creationists who doesn’t believe that evolution plays any role in patterns of human behavior.
Nah. I’m transgendered. I also believe that CULTURAL evolution has had a much bigger hand in our personalities, the past few thousand years than BIOLOGICAL evolution.
Such a rigorous and philosophically informed objection to the concept of rights! Totally not plagued by straw men assumptions at all!
RE: pillowinhell
Hey LBT, do these jeans make me look intellectually dishonest? Or just fake geeky?
You and me must be looking at different jeans, cause all I be seeing is FABULOUS.
“I distorted nothing.”
Yes, you did. You did so by making a completely absurd interpretation of that analogy.
someone who has a basic understanding of human psychology
Science is nothing more than the explanation that best fits, explains and predicts the observable facts. When you address a subject in terms of cause and effect every cause is, itself, the effect of a prior cause. Any really scientific “human psychology” involves massive chains of cause and effect extending back into long before recorded history.
The very “social causes” that get identified are, themselves nothing more than effects of prior causes. All human society is a reaction to human biology. If you don’t think that human society is a product of human biology then you have to explain what the causal foundation is for human society.
LBT, aww shucks! You say the sweetest things.
RE: Asher
If nerd-dom is such a defining identity then a woman isn’t probably a nerd if her sexual activities don’t involve cavorting with nerd men.
Well, I ain’t a woman, I’m a gay man, but I married a strapping jock boy who doesn’t know D&D from a hole in the ground. Well shit, I guess all my dice, comic books, and absurd knowledge of superhero trivia means jack all then.
What I suspect is that for men who identify themselves as “nerds” the identity is a huge part of who they are but for lots of women who adopt the label it is nowhere near as central to their identity.
Citation sorely, sorely needed buddy. My sister took being a nerd more seriously than I EVER did.
Yes, you did. You did so by making a completely absurd interpretation of that analogy.
Fine. Then explain the analogy and how it applies.
Asher is clearly NOT a history nerd, or he would know that historically, the majority of women have worked outside the home, have owned their own businesses etc, ect.
Yes, I’m well aware that women have usually supplemented their husband’s income.
RE: pillowinhell
My social skills grow progressively better the later it gets at night.
ORLY? And who was it that jumped o this thread to point out (eroneously) that geeky guys deserve to not be painted with the same brush as the kKk?
All that analogy does is compare the racist exclusionary attitude of the KKK to the sexist exclusionary attitude of male nerds who think that they need to keep “fake gamer girls” out. I wouldn’t say it’s a flawless analogy, but either way, the point stands: the latter group is being sexist and exclusionary.