I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/fakegeek.png?resize=573%2C541&ssl=1)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
Isn’t it strange that the “rejects of the gender system” seem to be the most interested in perpetuating it? Powerful allies, indeed.
Also, is gaming really dominated by one gender? Last I heard, women were ~48% of gamers, although for all I know I could be making that number up.
Too bad these guys can’t just be “fake” assholes.
“I protest how they interpret the fact that things aren’t always about them all the time as bigotry and hatred.”
Oh, the irony. That’s one of the funniest sentences I’ve ever read coming from an MRA.
The very CONCEPT of a fake geek girl enrages me so much, I’ma just copy/paste my tumblr post on the subject.
Whenever I hear some asshole gamer whining about how women aren’t real gamers, I want to hiss in their ear, “Roberta Williams.”
Whenever I hear some asshole gamer claiming that female protagonists in video games don’t sell, I want to say, “ROBERTA WILLIAMS.”
Whenever I hear some asshole gamer acting like his balls are getting chopped off because his sacred male space is being invaded by women, I just want to ram every CD-ROM of my Roberta Williams Anthology game collection down his throat in front of a mammoth blow-up picture of her in front of her computer circa 1978, all the while bellowing, “ROBERTA WILLIAMS, MOTHERFUCKER! ROBERTA! FUCKING! WILLIAMS!”
@Tulgey
I’m pretty sure it’s actually more than 50% of gamers are women. (Middle-aged women is a HUGE demographic). Except that if it’s a game that more women play than men, it doesn’t count. Far more men play the games that far more men play. QED.
It’s more in some communities. What makes it tough to gauge is that women often avoid identifying as female because they’re afraid they’ll be harassed and pestered if they do. Which, from what I’ve seen is sadly accurate.
I added a sentence to temper and clarify my comment on men “dominating” gaming. The figure I found for the percentage of women in gaming is 47%. Though the angry gamer dudes always claim that whatever games these women are playing somehow don’t count as real games.
Oh the irony, whining about wanting a “safe space” where “they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches on a bedpost” – but tell ’em women aren’t sexthings for their amusement and they’re full of rage.
(Middle-aged women is a HUGE demographic).
Lest anyone think this is shocking, my mom and my aunt were the big gamers of the older generation. Our dad never played anything but nethack; our ma and aunt played that, old Sierra games, and would have all-night Myst marathons. My aunt still plays Civilization and a few puzzle/Bedazzled like games that I don’t know.
I admit to having my issues with the concept of a safe space, and tend to sneer at them.
Also, the fake geek girl phenomenon is just… ASININE to me. Back when someone else here was in charge, she was a geek girl and geek guys were constantly whining about the lack of girls in their group. (Off the top of my head, I remember at least FOUR guys who tried to make us their Manic Pixie Dream Girl. God, the amount of shitty poetry we had to listen to…) And now that there ARE geek girls in their group, they’re whining about THAT! Christ, guys, get over yourselves!
Why the denial that most things “Geek” are mainstream now?
If you quiz a woman for existing in a “Geek” environment you ARE a sad loser.
i’m pretty sure the usual comeback regarding the percentages is that they argue against the inclusion of mobile games or anything considered “casual”. aka total bullshit.
in fact, i’m pretty sure i commented in that very thread and got a mountain of that boilerplate “real gamer” bullshit.
Shit, I AM a casual gamer–I rarely enjoy gaming unless I’m doing it with other people. Me, Sneak, and a buddy of ours have been playing ’90s adventure games every weekend for a while now. (So far, we’ve played through Grim Fandango, the Curse of Monkey Island, Laura Bow: The Dagger of Amon Ra, and now we’re working on Zork: Nemesis.) We’re the definition of casual.
On the other hand, my aunt and mom would stay up literally all night playing Myst games. Anyone who thinks they weren’t true gamers can say hello to my ass.
Girls have all the power in high school since what football team?
Misogynits geek’s safe space: somewhere he can wank away to thoughts of CGI images and not be put to the bother of treating women as people.
*Misogynist.
Though misogynits seems apt.
Weirdly, they pride themselves on being different from the high school jocks who allegedly made them feel inferior. Except, what kind of underdog punishes other demos for having the same hobbies as that they do?
hah, writing a research article on pretty much this exact topic, examining the ways sexism and prejudice are understood and expressed within online gaming environments.
all the arguments posted from the reddit are sounding like old-hat now
For all they whinge about being treated badly by the high school jocks, they’re dead keen on upholding gender roles when it suits them. Can’t have girls around, girls are icky! They’re not fit to do the manly dude things like … play around on a computer? (Not having a go at gamers, just at the nitwits who’re carrying on like it makes them rocket surgeons, and that only a peen can endow such mighty skillz.)
🙂
I honestly have grown really disillusioned with the idea of geek culture. I might have the hobbies (fuck, I make comic books and write spec fic) but a lot of it seems absurdly fixated on a dynamic that I’d rather leave behind in high school. Plus, I grew very sick of watching my fellow system members encounter the same kind of guys every time–nerdy, ‘sensitive’ guys who wanted to read us their shitty poetry even though we said we didn’t care for poetry (because of course, for THEM we would!), who wanted us to save them, and also wanted eye-candy on their arm to spite all those jocks they knew in high school who dated the cheerleaders.
Really, I’d just as soon not, thanks.
The funny thing about the guys bitching about how they were treated like shit in high school is that…these were the same fucktards that made fun of me in grade school for liking “guy” things like video games and Pokemon, and now they want to treat me like shit because “well, girls treated us like shit in high school”?
No. Fuck off. You can’t have it both ways.
Hi hokesone, not sure I’ve seen you here before — just in case, here’s a welcome package.
David, sorry about the migraines, that sucks. Hope they’re at least temporarily vanquished.
I’m sleepy because I’ve been working unpaid overtime, but I just wanted to share with you all how r/mr is working to uphold the rights of men by attacking any educational attempts against the #1 workplace killer of women. It is literally impermissible to talk about thing that harm women; men must ALWAYS be the focus, even in a workplace that is 95% women.
Sorry I’m not really engaging with the post, but I am myself not a gamer.
And I kind of hope that we could start a MBZ book club. XD
It remains baffling to me that male geeks think that they can declare geek stuff a “male space” and have everyone else go along with it. Geek stuff is commercial stuff – these are products, and the people who produce them would like as many people as possible to buy them. And if people buy they stuff and become fans they may well eventually want to attend events associated with the stuff, because that’s something that fans do. Do they not grasp the fact that scifi, gaming, and so on are commercial enterprises?
Even if geek culture had at one point been this hegemonic-masculinity-enforcement-free zone – I’d argue that it mostly replaced some of the standards with slightly different ones – how does more women being involved changing that? Surely the complaint would be against “fake gamer” . . . dudebros or something? Or is the argument that the minute women are around they are somehow forced to show off by being 1950s-style dickheads? Because you’re not, internet videogames people. Just treat them like people. It’s easier and kinder and makes things run a lot more smoothly for everyone involved.
@cloudiah
Don’t know what you’ve done with “#1 workplace killer of women” up there, but it’s just some nifty blue-text-what-changes-colour-when-hovered-over.