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Men’s Rights Redditor: It’s not sexism that holds back women in STEM. It’s just that women are inferior.

Over on the Men’s Rights subreddit, the lovely IHaveALargePenis explains that it’s not sexism holding back women in science and technology. No way! It’s just that women are inferior at science and technology. No sexism involved at all!

IHaveALargePenis 10 points 1 day ago (15|6)      The fact that women are so underrepresented in many STEM fields indicates that there must be some educational, societal, or institutional force pushing them away.  There is. It has a lot to do with women though. First with STEM, the hierarchy in the workforce always favors the smartest/most knowledgeable people. This means you can't flirt your way to the top or simply just "make it" eventually.  The work is somewhat quantifiable, so people can be tracked in how much work they do. You can't sit around and chat or take extra time off and fuck around. People will find out.  Many fields have horrible deadlines and any person not finishing their work on time can slow an entire project and become the weakest link. When you're holding up something that thousands of people are working on, relying on, etc and they're all waiting for you, not fun. Additionally you'll be pushed to do overtime, heavy overtime. When it comes to software development for example, in the last few months leading up to release, you'll be better off bringing extra clothes and a sleeping bag to work. This can apply to virtually all other fields in different ways for different reasons.  Women and men study differently. Women are great and memorizing but don't focus on understanding. This is why there's a relatively equal amount of girls/boys in STEM the first year, but then it significantly favors the boys as time passes. The problem is that women do great on tests, but don't bother to understand that knowledge, which is fairly important later on and everything you learn will be used in the future (as you move from first to 4th year). This is why girls have been doing better (or so it seems) ever since standardized tests.  There are no problems in STEM for women. There's nobody out there trying to hold them back. My university cracked down hard on this shit, even had security cameras installed to ensure there was no harassment or sexism going on. And you know what changed? Nothing.      The key is attacking gender issues from both sides, rather than the BS of encouraging women to enter and just ignoring all problems men have.  What exactly is there to attack? There's 50% more women in college than men. Women have infiltrated every major out there outside of STEM. Do you know how HUGE STEM is? Let me tell you how huge it is. Go look up any non STEM focused University out there (MIT or Standord) and check the faculty for STEM or other majors. You'll find out quickly that the entire STEM curriculum has fewer faculty than a single major like business.

Maybe IHaveALArgePenis should have taken an English class or two and learned what “irony” is.

Also, uh, how exactly are security cameras supposed to guard against sexism? This is a new one to me.

Thanks to Wrecksomething on the AgainstMensRights subreddit for pointing me to this mantastic quote.

 

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YoullNeverGuess
YoullNeverGuess
8 years ago

Reddit’s resident group of hyper-geniuses, otherwise known at The Red Pill, explained that girls like biology and chemistry because there’s no math. It hurts to laugh and vomit at the same time.

Dragon Lady
Dragon Lady
8 years ago

Is there no level of stupid too low for the Red Pill to descend? I doubt it.

kittehserf
8 years ago

Red pillers remind me of a joke I read this morning (probably a very old joke) that ten out of nine accountants can’t count.

Monster
8 years ago

“Reddit’s resident group of hyper-geniuses, otherwise known at The Red Pill, explained that girls like biology and chemistry because there’s no math. It hurts to laugh and vomit at the same time.”

I’ve heard people say that about biology, ecology, geology and environmental sciences…

But chemistry too now? Do I laugh or cry at that ? I just can’t decide!

Ally_S
8 years ago

@Shaenon

“Fake geek girls are ruining comics for real geeks, i.e. men. If our efforts to yell at them until they leave fail, our conventions will be overrun with sexy women dressed as our favorite characters. This will be terrible for some reason.”

LOL

The absurdity of MRAs is boundless.

kittehserf
8 years ago

Just read the Pharyngula thread on this. Some lovely take-downs of LargePenisSmallBrain there. It’s odd, these days, reading comments by people who’re unfamiliar with MRA stupidity. I feel like saying “Yes, yes they are all like that, they are that stupid and misogynistic, that’s their whole existence!”

Though interestingly, one person there is familiar with this idiot’s rantings, and despite the nym, no, he doesn’t seem to be a kid.

M Dubz
M Dubz
8 years ago

@Shaenon- My inner anthropologist thanks you for that. It was brilliant, truly.

M Dubz
M Dubz
8 years ago

… wait, chemistry has no math? tell that to senior year of high school me, who discovered her first applied use of calculus when calculating ph-balancing experiments. seriously. ugh. they’re not even wrong they’re so stupid.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Seconding what M Dubz said upthread. We are not doing boys any favors in the long-run if we allow them to opt out of learning discipline, time management, and so on. This dovetails with a lot of MRA stuff in an interesting way in that I get the impression that most of them are failures at work and socially isolated, and the majority of them are either Americans or Brits. Would they be in the position they’re in now if both British and American culture didn’t have a tendency to let boys off the hook for being poorly socialized, undisciplined, lazy, disruptive, and so on as kids? If society followed the recommendations of the people who whine about “male learning styles” then we’d end up with a lot more men in exactly the position that most MRAs are in now, because we live in a society and being a lazy, undisciplined, poorly socialized curmudgeon tends not to enhance anyone’s career or social prospects.

kittehserf
8 years ago

Add Australia to that list, Cassandra.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I think Australia, Canada, and New Zealand slip in under the “influenced by British culture, and particularly British sexism” banner.

(I don’t have enough experience with the French part of Canada to know how sexism tends to play out there, but the majority of Canadian MRAs seem to be from the historically Brit-influenced part and in fact sound a lot like stupid, sexist Brits. Sorry about that, non-asshole Canadians.)

rabbitwink
rabbitwink
8 years ago

Quebec? Eh, well… I’ll put it this way- the society has a lot of legal protections for women against sexism in hiring & so forth, abortion is legal, there’s some actual mat leave, women don’t automatically take men’s names while marrying, there’s no joint filing benefit, so many couples w/ and w/o kids are unmarried, but… on the ground there’s still a lot of leftover euro-macho & many women play into the “Mars & Venus” thing (mostly middle age and up), though the younger generation is much better.
Racism, xenophobia, homophobia, language panic, and nationalism is a much bigger problem. Oh- and in the name of “secularism” they try to ban religious headgear & customs & make no accommodations for non christian holidays, but then claim wearing crucifixes, the giant cross on the mountain, the cross in National Assembly and Christmas/Easter frenzies are exempt because they are simply “heritage”.

kittehserf
8 years ago

rabbitwink, there was an item in the paper here saying that there’s a push for it to be made illegal to use anything but French there, in things like restaurant menus. Is that true? It’s mind-boggling if so. “Visitor unfriendly” wouldn’t begin to describe it.

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
8 years ago

Meant to respond to this yesterday.

Apparently, women are better at standardized tests than men and are worse at understanding course material according to the great and knowledgeable YouHaveToKnowMyPenisIsLarge?

Isn’t it funny, then, that here where virtually all subjects in the faculties of science and technology have standardized tests that account for anywhere between 70-90% of the overall subject mark… more women are admitted into and are completing courses in humanities where standardized tests are rarely worth 30% or more and the remaining percentage is made up of research projects, essays and field reports?

You’d think, since by our very biology we would breeze through these science degrees, that we’d be getting more of them.

That said, there are still a hell of a lot of women in the sciences and that’s awesome, but I think the reason we are underrepresented has very, very little to do with DoYouKnowMyPenisIsBigYet’s argument..

Also, to all you ladies in fields that are traditionally and still often male dominated? *Air-five!*

Thankfully, the professors I’ve dealt with are very supportive of all their students regardless of gender identity. Even those in their 70s. They are awesome.

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
8 years ago

Oh! And the extreme male brain theory that was brought up earlier?

One of my close family members studies and assists those who have autism. The EMBT has caused them a lot of headaches. Look it up (or don’t, spare your forehead from the brutal beating against the keyboard).

Also, this.

http://www.news.com.au/money/banking/girl-11-has-higher-iq-than-einstein/story-e6frfmcr-1226695454418

Not that a person’s IQ determines much about them at all. Glad to see she acknowledges it, too. High aspirations, let’s hope they happen 🙂

Pear_tree
Pear_tree
8 years ago

Off topic but my parents get The Express, yesterday there were two articles that seem worth mentioning on here

1) How foreign brides are crying rape to get citizenship
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/421170/EXCLUSIVE-Government-urged-to-probe-bogus-migrant-brides-crying-rape-just-to-get-UK-visas

2) How the teenage girls sexually assaulted by several famous people were asking for it and deserve no sympathy. Anti-Operation Yewtree article.
I’ll look for the title so I can link to this later.

It upsets me that this MRA stuff is so mainstream.

Deoridhe
8 years ago

LBT – thought of something else today while I was doing pick-up at work. I don’t know if this will exist where you are, but in my city the Housing Authority has housing that is single occupancy, a third of your income housing that SSI makes you a semi-shoo-in to get. Usually if you go to the local Housing Authority office you can ask about available low-income housing. I do a lot of housing in those, and they can be really freaking awesome. I have some experience with the ins and outs of SSI and some benefits, so feel free to ask David for my email if you want any help or an extra set of eyes.

Deoridhe
8 years ago

Actually wait… the email associated with my G+ is a dead end. My user name at gmail is my main email.

crazyladyblues
crazyladyblues
8 years ago

@ Pear_tree I’ve not read the article but I am aware of a spate of victim blaming news stories in the UK.

melody
8 years ago

Did I ever mention I studied economics in college? (yes probably)

Anyhow, my teacher informed us ladies (all 4 of us) that we were the largest amount of women he had ever had in his class.

…………………………………

Interesting right?

Well, after a continuous barrage of “jokes” about the female gender from our male classmates only 2 of us came back for the next quarter.

It was a very hostile environment. I eventually talked to my teacher about it. We had a discussion in class. Some of the men responded very well and realized that they were being sexist and inappropriate. However, the other men couldn’t decide if I was a bitch for complaining or if I was a thin skinned pussy. It made for a relaxing rest of the quarter.

Anyway, I am clearly a glutton for punishment because the next year I came back for the more advanced class. The class was much smaller and while some hassling did happen it wasn’t as distracting.

Finance classes were similar, but I think because several of those courses were taught by a retired financial adviser who just happen to be a woman things weren’t so bad. She was quick to tell us of the sexism in the workplace. And told us she was called a bitch because she was good at her job. She kinda painted a bleak picture though. She appeared to be of the mind that there was no changing this….

kiki
kiki
8 years ago

I’m a copy editor, and a while back I worked on an article about the decline in uptake of STEM education and careers in the US. At the end there was a series of statistics aimed at highlighting the problem and also showing the benefits of pursuing a STEM career. The last of these was: ‘95% of women say they’d prefer a man who knows about computers and engineering than one who’s a fitness buff’, complete with a cheesy, ‘ironic’ clipart illustration of a woman in a 50s-style dress and heels running to kiss a bookish-looking but handsome man. Remember, this was in an article bemoaning the fact that more Americans (by which the author presumably meant American men) weren’t pursuing careers in STEM.

I swear it took me at least an hour to rework my original comment to the production editor – which was basically a long-winded version of ‘Are you fucking kidding me?’ – into something more diplomatic. The story has a happy ending, however – I was told that the offending stat had been flagged up by everybody along the production process, and that with my voice added to the chorus, it was pulled from the article.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@argenti aertheri

Either, both, neither, and a whole host of other things, depends on the person (my brain manages to make neither and both make sense, idfk)

🙂 thanks, I just wasn’t sure (hence the asking).

@youllneverguess

Reddit’s resident group of hyper-geniuses, otherwise known at The Red Pill, explained that girls like biology and chemistry because there’s no math. It hurts to laugh and vomit at the same time.

While I’ll admit I hate math with the fiery passion of 1000 suns, but my sister is a girl who also doesn’t so I’m 99% sure this is just a me-thing. I also hate chemistry though. (or more of not hate, just hated that I had to study). And biology, at least when they make you learn about everything going on at the microscopic level, which I couldn’t care less about. This probably makes my parents grimace, since one’s a biochemist and the other is a microbiologist XD

@pear_tree

It upsets me that this MRA stuff is so mainstream.

blargh. I need to cleanse my brain. 🙁

Historophilia
Historophilia
8 years ago

I am also a girl who is rubbish at maths.

But my brother is a boy who is not very good at maths.

And if anyone says that Biology or Chemistry doesn’t involve maths they’re talking hokum.

My brother wanted to study Biology at University, but his maths wasn’t good enough to do the Chemistry which you need for Biology.

He’s going to do Geography now which is actually what he is really interested in so it ended well.

Falconer
8 years ago

I’m okay at math. I also had no trouble grasping Newtonian physics, the actions of macroscopic objects and linear forces.

Nuclear physics just totally escaped me, despite hours with the professor after class. While the professor was explaining it, it seemed reasonable, but then my problem was adapting the knowledge to the problems I was asked to work.

Similarly, I can’t balance a chemical equation to save my life, and that’s totally math. Multiplication, even, which I can do under any other circumstance, but ask me to find how much oxygen and how much hydrogen produces how much water, and I run up to the test time limit and beyond.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Um, even I know that one 2:1. Now, the real question is, how many hydrogen atoms are on my floor. I have a leak somewhere.

I’m absolute rubbish with calc and actual physics. I get the concepts well enough for simple problems (like water flow) but ask me to calculate it instead of guesstimating the range? *hides in a corner*

Stats I’ll eat for breakfast though!

leftwingfox
8 years ago

I’m alright at math, I just don’t like it all that much.

I was pretty damn good with chemistry and biology and the associated math, but couldn’t come up with a research project on my own initiative when it came down to it, and spent most of my second year drawing rather than working.

I’m incredibly glad I took my Uncle’s advice to go to a technical school for practical biology before going for my PhD: I was able to fail out and get into animation without racking up massive student debt.

Falconer
8 years ago

Now, the real question is, how many hydrogen atoms are on my floor.

No more than there ought to be. Probably you have too many hydrogen atoms bonded to oxygen atoms, though.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
8 years ago

I always liked the line: “Women are great at memorizing but not so good at understanding”.

It has so many neat little assumptions, and it makes a point entirely besides the point it was trying to make. Because the obvious conclusion is that it’s not really about female academic performance. It’s about how all women are really nothing more than zombie-herd animals who parrot lines and don’t think, philosophical zombies if you will.

When asked a question, they’ll tell you the right answer (the dastardly females) and even maybe explain why, but they won’t really be giving you the right answer, because women aren’t people, and so don’t have conscious deliberation or personal thought. They just parrot a line that fits the moment, makes some garbled approximation of sound they’ve been told is the right soundbite to move on in this strict linear progression.

It is The Shittest World Imaginable!

And it always comes up with all this neat little corollaries, like:

A) Because you can memorize everything, you can’t study physics
B) Because you can memorize everything, you can’t do research
C) Because you can memorize everything, you should be a secretary.

And it also has this snide little overtone of how men can do the same, but better. You tell me how you expect to compute mathematical models without memorizing how fucking numbers work, but by having a penis you can memorize AND use the memories constructively to suss out a pattern. You have the ability to think! Your penis grants you the magical powers of salience and sapience, and you’re suddenly a person.

You have cognition. Understanding. You can take things, remember them, and use them constructively.

But women? Feh, women don’t really understand, they just memorize…

… So I like the line. It’s a brilliant shorthand for finding out what people think women aren’t people, let alone humans, but just mere wandering automate.

Dragon Lady
Dragon Lady
8 years ago

Fibinachi, you hit the nail right on the head.

cloudiah
8 years ago

2) How the teenage girls sexually assaulted by several famous people were asking for it and deserve no sympathy. Anti-Operation Yewtree article.
I’ll look for the title so I can link to this later.

Was it this article? Judgy Bitch has company in victim blaming!

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

So, I’m a programmer by day, right?

I work in an office that is just about evenly divided, men and women.

Guess what my opinion is of guys who say ‘oh, women are just no good with technology’?

Seriously, while they’re busy talking about how women are just no good at it… women are in here getting shit done. All day, every day.

Keep whining, fellas. Keep whining.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Falconer — …that is entirely accurate.

katz
8 years ago

I hate math so much that I became a physical chemist. The absolute mathiest part of chemistry.

Pillowinhell
Pillowinhell
8 years ago

Chemistry has no math??? Blergh…splutter hahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chemistry is all about math! If you can’t figure out how to do the math and figure out which equation to use…you FAIL. And anyone who has gotten further than grade nine science should know that. The only place I can think of off the top of my head where you can apply chemistry without doing he math first would be in home screen while baking. And even then, you still have to know this little mathematical concept called proportion.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Aquariums — places you can apply chemistry without any more math than counting and reading numbers (add X drops, match to Y color, read number next to it, act accordingly)

Of course, that’s when things are normal, when you swap a 10g for a 30g with 10g sump and have detectable ammonia levels…I have actual chemistry to do >.<

katz
8 years ago

Hey Argenti, I had a graphing question: I want to graph my kitten’s weight over time and what medications he was taking at each point. but the medications are basically binary states (either he was taking each one or he wasn’t). How would you go about graphing that?

Pear_tree
Pear_tree
8 years ago

Katz, I hope you don’t me answering with my personal opinion (although I’m not a statistician). I would use a line plot of time against weight with time on the x-axis. I would then use shading of the graph area to represent whether your cat was on drugs at each time interval. You could also change the color of the line. I imagine a 3D plot would also work but I think using color for the binary variable is the simplest solution.

Cloudiah it sounds like that article but I’m not sure they mentioned the person had been accused of rape. I need to go outside and check.

Pear_tree
Pear_tree
8 years ago

Cloudiah, yeah that was the one. I guess it is important to represent his views but it often seems to be done out of support rather than criticism.

katz
8 years ago

Pear tree: Good idea (and sorry for making it sound like Argenti was the One and Only person who could answer my question) but the trick is that he’s been on several drugs at the same time, each of which is its own binary state.

Rising Phoenix
Rising Phoenix
8 years ago

I am always amazed by people who insist that the education system is stacked against boys and that if boys no longer have expectations of behavior or focus placed on them, they will magically do brilliantly.

This isn’t what the MRM is saying. The MRM is saying that it might do to ask why the learning approaches taken in classrooms don’t seem to work as well for male children. That’s really it.

The feminists find this very threatening, apparently. Can’t have the spotlight shifted away from them for even a second.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Citation needed, Rising Phoenix. On both counts.

Bostonian
Bostonian
8 years ago

HI RUI! (to Rising Pheonix, the sock of the dude on the Last of US thread)

Pear_tree
Pear_tree
8 years ago

Katz, how many different drugs? You could use color mixing with red green and blue. It is a lot of data. What are you looking for specifically? I’d guess patterns between drugs and weight gains/losses

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Katz — idk the “official” way to do it, but I’ve done time v weight and then a second y axis 0-2 so 1 = falls in the middle. And then color code that. Depending how many meds, excel might get unreadable, in which case I’d turn on the chart display thing (so each x value has the y values under it)

misery
misery
8 years ago

It’s just an anecdote of course, but in my high school we had a choice between two hard science profiles based on: math, physics, chemistry, biology. Literally the group that picked the one with a biology focus was ~15 girls, 1 guy, whereas the one with the focus on physics had 11 guys, 0 girls. (I was in the second group) Naturally, everyone in the second group made fun of the one guy, and they also generally considered biology not a ‘hard science’ subject, as to properly maintain their feelings of superiority towards women. In retrospect it was really embarrassing on our side, especially since there were many girls that did very well in ‘hard science’ subjects, which we dismissed as tainted because they only did well by studying more, which didn’t count.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Rising Phoenix is a decent name for a sock if you’re a pretentious fucker, this has to be acknowledged.

Monster
8 years ago

@ misery – yes, yes, the old ‘biology is a soft science and therefore easy and not serious’ approach. I am familiar with that.

katz
8 years ago

6 different drugs, max of 4 at one time.

pecunium
8 years ago

Off-topic: The Stop and Frisk case was ruled on today: as practised it’s unconstitutional. I did a write up: Stopped and fisked.