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Men’s Rights Redditor: It’s not sexism that holds back women in STEM. It’s just that women are inferior.

Over on the Men’s Rights subreddit, the lovely IHaveALargePenis explains that it’s not sexism holding back women in science and technology. No way! It’s just that women are inferior at science and technology. No sexism involved at all!

IHaveALargePenis 10 points 1 day ago (15|6)      The fact that women are so underrepresented in many STEM fields indicates that there must be some educational, societal, or institutional force pushing them away.  There is. It has a lot to do with women though. First with STEM, the hierarchy in the workforce always favors the smartest/most knowledgeable people. This means you can't flirt your way to the top or simply just "make it" eventually.  The work is somewhat quantifiable, so people can be tracked in how much work they do. You can't sit around and chat or take extra time off and fuck around. People will find out.  Many fields have horrible deadlines and any person not finishing their work on time can slow an entire project and become the weakest link. When you're holding up something that thousands of people are working on, relying on, etc and they're all waiting for you, not fun. Additionally you'll be pushed to do overtime, heavy overtime. When it comes to software development for example, in the last few months leading up to release, you'll be better off bringing extra clothes and a sleeping bag to work. This can apply to virtually all other fields in different ways for different reasons.  Women and men study differently. Women are great and memorizing but don't focus on understanding. This is why there's a relatively equal amount of girls/boys in STEM the first year, but then it significantly favors the boys as time passes. The problem is that women do great on tests, but don't bother to understand that knowledge, which is fairly important later on and everything you learn will be used in the future (as you move from first to 4th year). This is why girls have been doing better (or so it seems) ever since standardized tests.  There are no problems in STEM for women. There's nobody out there trying to hold them back. My university cracked down hard on this shit, even had security cameras installed to ensure there was no harassment or sexism going on. And you know what changed? Nothing.      The key is attacking gender issues from both sides, rather than the BS of encouraging women to enter and just ignoring all problems men have.  What exactly is there to attack? There's 50% more women in college than men. Women have infiltrated every major out there outside of STEM. Do you know how HUGE STEM is? Let me tell you how huge it is. Go look up any non STEM focused University out there (MIT or Standord) and check the faculty for STEM or other majors. You'll find out quickly that the entire STEM curriculum has fewer faculty than a single major like business.

Maybe IHaveALArgePenis should have taken an English class or two and learned what “irony” is.

Also, uh, how exactly are security cameras supposed to guard against sexism? This is a new one to me.

Thanks to Wrecksomething on the AgainstMensRights subreddit for pointing me to this mantastic quote.

 

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vanillarosetangents
vanillarosetangents
8 years ago

My female brain does not understand what you wrote, but I will memorise it.

MrFancyPants
MrFancyPants
8 years ago

Cool, I had no idea that automatic sexism-detecting cameras exist! Is there a klaxon or a rotating beacon that goes off when it detects some?

Karalora
Karalora
8 years ago

MRA Claims Sexism Doesn’t Exist, Uses Appallingly Sexist Reasoning to Reach This Conclusion. Part # 463860930987

I am always impressed* by the lengths to which sexists will go to explain why women’s superior performance in a given area is actually evidence of their inferiority.

*Well, not so much impressed as driven to roll my eyes so hard they hurt, but you get the idea.

aftermathclub
8 years ago

Yeah, that’s why I consistently get in the top 3 on project-based work, because of my inherent lack of ability to understand the subject matter. And why my professors consistently comment about how the women in my classes all get on with lab work efficiently and are more engaged yet most of the men will bugger around for an hour before asking “what are we doing?” and then complaining about how bored they are.

That’s my anecdata, and that’s real. 😐

sarahlizhousespouse
8 years ago

The user’s nym tells me all I need to know about his intelligence. The sexism used to argue that sexism doesn’t exist isn’t the only irony here.

Karalora
Karalora
8 years ago

@sarahliz, my rule of thumb is that any given MRA’s personal aptitude is inversely proportional to how hard he flogs the notion that men are collectively superior to women. It also works for white supremacists and fundamentalist Christians! Try it some time!

Bahumbugi
Bahumbugi
8 years ago

These folks certainly can’t understand stereotype threat. Changing the wording on math tests to avoid asking about gender typically eliminates the gender differences in score, from my understanding. There’s some really well designed studies on this.

Nobody’s talking about the Hugo meltdown?

sarahlizhousespouse
8 years ago

@Karalora
Rabid fundamentalists adhering to any ideology or religion tend to be rather inept. 😀
And what are the members of the manosphere if not ideologues?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I love how unaware of the language they use and how it gives them away they are. So women have “infiltrated” all of the non-STEM subjects, huh? Kind of like a terrorist group, or spies for a hostile army?

Keep on being obvious, guys.

La Strega
8 years ago

He goes on to cite a 1992 study that suggests women tend to use a “conversational style” of studying that “fostered group consensus [and] encouraged collaboration.” Now why that would later prevent women from problem solving in science and technology, as he concludes, is a mystery to me. It strikes me that the ability to share ideas and work effectively in teams is especially crucial in those fields.

La Strega
8 years ago

As a college instructor, I am particularly irked by MRA claims that “no one cares” that fewer boys are enrolled in universities.

kittehserf
8 years ago

La Strega – no, no, no, the way to do manly menz STEM with manly menz brainz is to do it all by yourself, then throw a hissy fit when someone* points out an error or twenty later on.

*especially if that someone is a female

/snark

genderneutrallanguage
8 years ago

Wow, such misogyny. There are greater differences between males and females than the genital being an iny or outy. I just can’t believe that any one could even conceive of such sexist hate mongering. One insignificant bit of reproductive organs are the ONLY difference between men and women………..I call BULLSHIT. There are differences between the sexes. Males and females are not the same. Until you stop calling sexism everytime someone has the audacity to point this out, no real conversation or progress can be made.

kittehserf
8 years ago

Oh, world’s most boring troll is here demonstrating his lack of reading comprehension and lack of knowledge about everything. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Apparently gender neutral language = painfully awkward language, as well as unique and innovative grammar. The famed MRA double period makes an appearance!

girlofthegaps
girlofthegaps
8 years ago

Waitaminute… since when is MIT not STEM-focused? Because maybe it’s my ladybrain, but I was under the impression that the “T” in both those acronyms literally stood for “technology.”

I begin to suspect that Dick here doesn’t actually know what the STEM fields are.

LadySunami
LadySunami
8 years ago

Women are great at memorizing? That’s news to me. My memorization skills suck. That’s one of several reasons I decided to go into chemistry rather then biology. I’m excellent with understanding, no so great with memorization. Exactly the opposite of the supposed women this idiot is talking about. (Then again, I am dyslexic. Perhaps my dyslexia has “graced” me with a man like brain? He’d probably believe that explanation too…)

Radical Parrot
8 years ago

Shorter GNL: “Until you accept that men are simply better than women, no real conversation or progress can be made.”

Don’t pretend that’s not where this was going. Oh, and while I’m predicting the course of your thought pattern, “nurturing” is not an inborn trait in a woman any more than it is an inborn trait in a man. Many women are competitive, and many men prefer cooperation. Even if we accept that some gender-specific strengths exist, individual differences far outweigh them anyway, so assigning different roles for women and men within a system based on gender is counterproductive*.

What’s next on the MRM’s Big Book of Bullshit?

*HOWEVER, addressing sexism and misogyny in a system is not favouring women. If men were faced with sexism to an equal degree, addressing that specific issue would not be favouring men. So don’t try any gotchas.

rabbitwink
rabbitwink
8 years ago

STEM in academia is having a very hard time retaining women. Why? Sexism, pure & simple. PI’s still illegally ask questions about women’s plans to have children, inherently question their commitment, are hesitant to mentor them, and act like assholes towards them at professional conferences. (Then again any field in academia is having a hard time with this because of the tenure system, the endless workload and the complete inability/refusal of the academic system to accommodate people with families).
If the idiot wants to see more STEM ladies in action he ought to check out industry, where women actually get health insurance, decent pay, vacation time, sick days, and their jobs are protected during maternity leave (even if the leave is brief & unpaid).

MaudeLL
8 years ago

Aw, IHaveaLargePenis…

I can’t wait for your informed opinion on why women outnumber men in STEM in Iran. That is, until Iran started to put quotas and pro-men affirmative action, because test results only were unfair to underachieving men.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

The nurturing thing was always such obvious bullshit to me, because I grew up in a place where most of the single people around were men (working bachelor status in the Middle East because their families didn’t want to go with them), so those were my babysitters as a kid. Those guys were pretty damn nurturing, and they volunteered to do it because they missed their own kids.

Ally S
8 years ago

@GNL

“One insignificant bit of reproductive organs are the ONLY difference between men and women”

Says the person who previously expressed support for trans* men.

That’s some hypocrisy right there.

kittehserf
8 years ago

Maude – because Iran is a feminist paradise, just like Saudi Arabia, obviously. Misandry!

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

The camera thing is some grade-A assfax.

GNL can go away any time. Boring creature.

AK
AK
8 years ago

@Cassandra, I have to agree. I’ve known a ton of men who preferred nurturing roles, and far more who may not prefer it professionally but are great at it personally. Mr. AK is actually one of them. He works in a STEM field and is very good at what he does, but he is also very nurturing. I’d say he’s more nurturing than I am, actually, and based on his behavior towards our friends’ kids and our conversations about parenting (we’re planning kids soon), I am certain he will be the same way towards our kids.

The only men I’ve known who were less nurturing than I’d consider normal for women (it’s a spectrum, so hopefully that makes some sense) were men who were incredibly caught up in rigid patriarchal gender roles. I’ve known some men who didn’t seem to have a nurturing bone in their bodies, but they tend to be the uber-macho, deeply unhappy, homophobic and angry stereotype. Humans are social animals, we nurture each other. It’s just what we do, regardless of gender.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ AK

My dad is actually far more nurturing than his sisters. He’s one of those men who kids stick to like glue, and I’ve known lots of men like that (and I’ve lived on 4 different continents, so my sample size is a lot bigger than average).

Hell, even in the most rigidly patriarchal cultures I’ve known men who were super nurturing. It’s a personality characteristic that’s not in any way related to gender, as far as I can tell. In fact the only connection I’ve ever been able to see is that people who themselves had very nurturing and affectionate people surrounding them as children seem to be more likely than average to grow up to be very affectionate and nurturing themselves, which makes me think that it may be partly a learned behavior too.

AK
AK
8 years ago

@Cassandra, totally agree on it being a learned behavior. I mean, I think it’s a natural behavior that almost all of us are predisposed to, but I absolutely believe it needs to be modeled. If you learn that nurturing is a good or have good role models, you’ll be great at it. If you learn it is bad or weak, you’ll avoid it.

The non-nurturing men I’m thinking of are all USians who believe anything coded as feminine is weak or bad. Crying, hugging, even praise or emotional support are seen as bad. It seems like a miserable way to live to me and to most men I know. Fortunately it seems to be a very small portion of the population.

AK
AK
8 years ago

*nurturing is a good thing, that is.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I feel like in terms of men and nurturing behavior it’s something that often gets trained out of them, or shamed out of them by other men as adults. Which is really sad, because nurturing relationships add so much to the lives of everyone involved.

It does feel like there’s more pressure on men to not be nurturing here than in most other places I’ve lived, and most other cultures I’ve interacted with. In the parts of the Middle East and Asia that I lived in it was very common to see men and boys interacting with kids in an openly affectionate way, for example – my Dad’s best friend in Libya used to cuddle me every time I saw him, and older boys were usually very nurturing and affectionate towards younger kids of both sexes. I’ve had several friends who were Korean who were very attentive and affectionate towards kids, and that’s about as rigidly patriarchal a culture as you can find anywhere. The only culture I can think of offhand that’s more inclined to socialize men out of nurturing behavior than the US, especially towards kids, is Japan, and even there you see men who love kids and ignore the social programming.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
8 years ago

In biology, the undergraduate population is slightly more female, IMO, and stays that way the entire time. At my college, the professors were roughly 50% female, too, and women have been well-represented for a really long time. The group at my new job is way male (grumble grumble–I like having other women around) but there are female scientists around.

I also get the sense that people who babble about STEM as the last bastion of male dominance (a) don’t know much about science, (b) completely forget about biology, and (c) think computer programming is the height of logical STEM-iness.

@ Lady Sunami–I’m also terrible at memorizing, which is why I didn’t go into chemistry. (Well, that and I love biology). O-chem seemed to be nothing but memorizing random chemical reactions, where things like evolutionary biology and ecology were all about principles.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

They do seem to think that the life sciences aren’t part of STEM, which is interesting. Cynicism suggests that they may be aware that the life sciences tend to have more women, and that’s why they’re quietly ignoring that part of the STEM picture.

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
8 years ago

I think there are two things going on with that:

First, I think these misogynists also tend to be the kind of people who disregard anything regarded as feminine, so they actually don’t respect biology, and therefore don’t consider it part of STEM, which they do respect.

Second, I think most of them them (from what I’ve seen from SRS, and above) are into programming (see “coding” reference above) and so when they say STEM they mean programming.

Also, I don’t see most of them having patience for “random crap not working right”, which is an integral part of actually doing science, particularly biology. (The big boy of Evo-Devo, Sean Carroll, opens “Endless Forms Most Beautiful” talking about finally finding an antibody stain that works for the protein he wanted to look at.)

lowquacks
lowquacks
8 years ago

This is why there’s a relatively equal amount of girls/boys in STEM the first year, but then it significantly favors the boys as time passes.

Yeah, there couldn’t be any other reasons at all, could there?

The problem is that women do great on tests, but don’t bother to understand that knowledge, which is fairly important later on and everything you learn will be used in the future (as you move from first to 4th year)

Funnily enough, I’ve only heard that one as a too-clever-for-this-white-boy stereotype (and something I’m guilty of).

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
8 years ago

I love how as soon as women start doing better than men on the ways we historically have used to tell intelligence and academic ability (like grades and tests) those aren’t *real* markers of intelligence. Instead, intelligence is marked by not bothering to do the work, because they shows how little you need to!

wordsp1nner
wordsp1nner
8 years ago

Also Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood is so awesome. Thanks for whoever it was here who recommended it.

Lady Mondegreen
8 years ago

Two recent experiments that provide strong evidence of unconscious sexist bias in STEM hiring (I’m linking to articles that reference the studies):

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/12/27/gender-and-biased-perceptions-scientists-rate-job-applicants/

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jan/14/sexual-discrimination-science

BTW I heard about these studies last year from Sean Carroll (the physicist, not the biologist,) who discussed sexism within STEM during a talk on the search for the Higgs Boson for CFI-Los Angeles.

Hmmm, whose argument do I give more weight–Sean fuckin Carroll (backed by evidence) or a dude who calls himself “IHaveALargePenis” (backed by assfax)?

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

Wow, the way Dick there describes the STEM fields, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to be there. You apparently get treated like shit, work tons of hours, and are surrounded by people constantly waiting for you to fail. Why the hell would this be seen as a good thing?

Also, my husband is an incredibly sweet, nurturing sort of man. It’s the reason I fell for him in the first place; he was kind to me.

RE: GNL

One insignificant bit of reproductive organs are the ONLY difference between men and women………

Not even that! *hip thrusts at you*

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

Also, ZOMG, we got our disability letter today. We have to go into the Social Security office with a bunch of papers, but we meet the medical requirements.

I’m still really conflicted about my feelings on being officially Too Batshit To Work… but I’m also relieved that it looks like soon, I won’t have to scope out bridges for sleep space anymore.

leftwingfox
8 years ago

A little OT, but “I have a large penis” is in the same category of statements as “You can trust me.” and “I’m not a racist”; statements only ever made as lies.

katz
8 years ago

You know who milks the “girls pass tests, but boys understand” thing for all it’s worth? Boys who are bad at tests. Any science teacher you’d care to ask could probably share stories of boys who complained about their poor grades, saying “But I understand the concepts, I just don’t know how to do the actual problems.”

It’s an excuse to divorce the vague feeling that the explanation the teacher gave made sense from the ability to crunch numbers, AKA actually doing science for real.

cloudiah
8 years ago

Not to discount your conflicted feelings, LBT, but I am really glad to hear you won’t be sleeping under bridges.

Dragon Lady
Dragon Lady
8 years ago

A troll came to play. Is this the kind that sticks around or runs away?

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

Also, LBT, I’m totally stealing *hip thrusts at you* as a general insult. Nobody will understand it except Manboobzers, and it will be awesome.

JetGirl
8 years ago

Why are the ability to learn and the ability to memorize mutually exclusive? When it comes to math, remembering times tables, strategies and formulas is useful for problem solving. It’s vocabulary for speaking math.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: cloudiah

So am I, really. Also, thanks to your writeathon sponsorships, you’ve earned yourself a bonus sketch! Would you like it for La Curandera?

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

So I’m (thankfully not literally currently) elbow deep in designing and installing a box with all sorts of plumbing and physics and organic chemistry involved (to be fair, I do not get the latter besides the ammonia cycle in fish tanks)…what’s in my pants GNL? Besides the PVC cement on them.

It all works btw, preliminary run went uh, not swimmingly because swimming in it would’ve been a failure. All water goes where it should, siphon on the overflow doesn’t break if the pump stops, venturi port trick works, float switch works, need to test the siphon break on the return line, but there’s no way in hell it doesn’t work. Also need to attempt to measure a puffer and confirm that they are bigger than the holes on the return line, but I’m pretty sure they are (and if not, they’re close enough that I can’t see them trying to squeeze in there).

In sort, SUCCESS! But I’m rubbish at STEM tests (knowledge of chunks of it is only so useful). So GNL, just what’s in my pants? And my puffers, one’s all inquisitive and comes right out to greet me and is damned near fearless, the other tends to hang out in relatively hidden places and skitters off when I put my hand to close. What’re their genders?

“Nobody’s talking about the Hugo meltdown?”

On this particular thread, no. But try any of the past 4~ for various bits of that mess.

LBT — not scoping bridges is good, yes. And if it helps, officially batshit means it isn’t all in your head (well, other than your brain being located there, but you get what I mean). I’ll still do your keyboard, even if you don’t have to worry about carting it cross country. Absolute failure on electronic tests, but put an actual machine in front of me and I’ll fix it 🙂

Expect pressure washers, that one I couldn’t solve, but I’m not allowed to take it apart.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Ack, that got long. Sorry for my fish babble!

cloudiah
8 years ago

@LBT, for La Curandera would be great! I hope the writeathon is going well!

Shaun DarthBatman Day
8 years ago

http://wonder-tonic.com/geocitiesizer/index.php

It almost makes the manosphere readable. Almost.

cloudiah
8 years ago

@Shaun, That is so awesome I almost can’t even…

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