So the regulars in the Men’s Rights subreddit are currently discussing one of the most important — if often overlooked — issues of our time, which is: How come nobody but us sees that the ladies aren’t oppressed any more? Or, as paranoiarodeo497, looking hopefully towards the future, has chosen to put the question: “What future event/tragedy do you think will happen that will make people realize not only are women no longer deprived but in fact equal to men?”
Alas, the Men’s Rightsers aren’t hopeful that anything will wake up the snoozing sheeple. BrambleEdge, for his part, worries that men will remain oppressed forever.
![BrambleEdge 17 points 15 hours ago (18|1) Seeing as men are deprived and far from equal to women, and people don't see it now, I doubt they ever will. I sometimes fear that gynocentrism is biological and not cultural. [–]Demonspawn [-1] 1 point 52 minutes ago (1|0) gynocentrism is biological Treating women as human beings and men as human doings? Yes, it is biological. It's also why "equality" isn't, and seeking it creates a system of female supremacy.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/bramble.png?resize=573%2C230&ssl=1)
Shrekem, meanwhile, turns to the work of eminent historian GirlWritesWhat for evidence that women were never oppressed in the first place:
![Shrekem 9 points 13 hours ago (12|3) The problem is that women were never oppressed or deprived, they just had different roles. Women are certainly not "equal" to men today, they receive special treatment and are immune to many laws that would get a man locked up for life. I recommend you watch Karen Straughan's video on "When female privilege backfires". permalink source save give gold hide child comments [–]villevillakulla -4 points 11 hours ago (4|8) I guess it depends on how you define oppressed or deprived, but it kind of sounds like you're full of shit, and "different roles" can be a blanket statement to mean anything you want it to mean. permalink source save parent give gold [–]Shrekem 5 points 8 hours ago (6|1) I would define oppression as "the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner" just like everybody else. I challenge you to come up with one example of women being oppressed in western society in the past few centuries. The treatment of women is nothing compared to real oppression like that of blacks during slavery.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/shrekem.png?resize=567%2C377&ssl=1)
IHaveALargePenis, in addition to being highly confident about his relative penis size, is also a bit more optimistic than his peers, suggesting that the irresponsibility of evil slutty single moms will eventually end up annoying not only single men but other women as well and thus, I guess, help to spark a new wave of antifeminism:
![IHaveALargePenis [+3] 5 points 12 hours ago (6|1) Government taxing bachelors to sponsor single moms/women in general. If shit keeps going the way it's going, everything women need will be provided by a government, while working less and claiming there's still a pay gap. It won't take a genius to put two and two together and realize that the benefits women get from the government, plus the benefits they get from working are huge compared to what men pay/get out of it. But that's not when things will change, not yet. What we're going to see is a rise of single, irresponsible moms who breed and have their lives paid for by taxpayers. And part of those taxpayers will be other women, who can't find men willing to "breed with them" or marry them, etc. These women will be working 40+ hours a week easy, will sacrifice greatly, miss their chance to have kids, and realize they're paying for all these irresponsible women to have their cake and eat it to (our society is pretty good at rewarding the irresponsible). That's when things will change.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ihavealarge.png?resize=580%2C276&ssl=1)
But Scoundrel, a more pessimistic sort, can’t imagine any scenario that would get the evil femmies to admit that men are oppressed:
Sorry, IHaveALargePenis, but you’ve been outvoted.
Meanwhile, loose-dendrite, off on a bit of a tangent, warns those who might otherwise be susceptible to feminist-think that seeing similar numbers of men and women in positions of power would not be a sign of gender equality — but rather a symptom of FEMALE TYRANNY!
Huh. I was unaware that high IQ was a prerequisite to power in our society. Did anyone tell George W. Bush?
In conclusion, MRAs have once against shown that they can use any and all evidence to “prove” what they already believe. Another flawless victory over the forces of reality.
Sorry about the repeating the name thing, since it does sound creepy, in retrospect. Everyone’s definitely right about that.
I think that’s the danger of writing posts from my phone; I keep getting interrupted and I don’t notice context or read it all over properly, and since I was a rather displeased and not exactly in the best mood in the first place, I wrote hastily, and I think it ended up sounding shitty. Phones suck for this sort of stuff. I’m probably not going to post on a phone when I feel like that again.
Aaanyway.
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@Pecunium
Fair enough, on your interpretation. My experience with Pharyngula has been that when ‘Christian Apologists’ and ‘Creationists’ are spoke of, that’s generally code for William Lane Craig, Ken Ham, and their ilk. But you ARE correct that Pharyngula has the tendency to lash out like that and take cheap jabs at the religious. I can definitely see why you, a Catholic, would not feel welcome there.
I do not feel that you were beating up on me, or that you were being uncharitable to me at all.
@CassandraSays
I definitely wouldn’t mistake not being able to win a popularity contest for having one’s rights taken away, but the representation of groups in politics compared to their actual population proportion IS in fact an indicator of how well and how fairly society treats a particular group. Not a perfect one, by any means.
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In general:
I really don’t want to play oppression olympics here. If we did that, I think I’d lose. Hard. It’s not about who’s more oppressed. As I mentioned before, I would freely admit that atheists have it pretty good, compared to a lot of groups, like women, gays, muslims in the America, etc. I don’t want to claim that atheists have it SOO bad, but simply that on at least one axis of privilege, atheists have it worse than the predominant religion in the US, and most places in the world, and I don’t think that’s right. Perhaps one might even say that minority religious groups are just treated worse, because Muslims have a lot of similar issues in America, but they get it even worse because of the intersection of the religious element of this issue with racism as well. And atheists are simply another of the minority religious groups. So framing it as ‘theist privilege’ may in fact be inaccurate, but ‘majority religious group’ privilege would definitely be accurate.
Most of the negative consequences atheists face come in the form of social costs, and being marginalized. Violence against atheists is rather rare (but not entirely unheard of). I’ve been the victim of vandalization and threats due to it, though. Atheists do face quite a bit of hostility from religious people, especially fundies. And there’s even a lot of liberal Christians who are willing to throw atheists under the bus too. I’ve run into a bunch of them. Much of the discrimination atheists face is in the form of the unjustified social cost of being a publicly-known atheist. Atheists consistently come off last in all sorts of polls judging the public’s attitude towards various groups, and people perceive atheists as being dishonest and even sinister, doing the same things as believers. In the minds of many, religion is used as a kind of stand-in for moral behavior, and religiosity is interchangable with virtue. In many places, being known as an atheist makes one a pariah, and if the wrong person finds the wrong thing when they google your name, it can cost you consideration for a job and such (This also goes for being gay, and a bunch of other things, too).
It’s all shitty and it matters to me because I’m an atheist and I’ve experienced a bunch of this in my life. I’ve also experienced other crap because I’m not 100% straight and because I don’t conform to male gender roles. Certain members of my family won’t talk to me anymore, some because of the atheism, some because I came out as bi to my family. All of this stuff sucks. These are simply the things I’ve experienced, so they’re important to me. I have at least a bit of empathy, so I’m also a feminist, because I realize that women get put through a lot more of this crap than men do, as a whole, and I think that sucks too. I just want people to be able to be people, and to be judged by what they do, not by what they believe, or who they love, or any other irrelevant factor like that. That’s my reason for being interested in social justice.
I don’t really appreciate being accused of being some kind of quasi-MRA dudebro just because I believe that atheists are treated inequitably compared to Christians in the US.
—
And finally, circling back around to the original topic:
I have the same attitude as most of you have towards otherkin and fictionkin and such. If it makes them feel better, and doesn’t harm anyone, it’s all good. The extreme negative reaction towards someone holding an odd, eccentric belief is…weird. I definitely agree that if you’re an atheist, one should be pushing the angle that people with different beliefs are non-threatening and just fine as long as those beliefs are benign, rather than insisting that there is only one correct thing to believe.
Hey there, intersectionality fail. Women and atheists? POC and atheists? Sometimes the same people.
They’re definitely sometimes the same people. I didn’t realize I implied that they weren’t. It’s occasionally difficult to talk about different, but often overlapping group, so sorry I slipped up with the wording somewhere.
I’m interested in social justice, but I’m still pretty new to the community, and commenting about it like this. I still find myself trying to correct things I naturally say to be more inclusive of trans* people.
Honestly, that entire comment is a mess. For example…
The predominant religion in the US is not the predominant religion in the world (Christianity as a whole has the edge, but the specific forms of Christianity practiced here not so much). As has been stated many times, the way atheists are regarded in some parts of the US is not the same way they’re regarded everywhere. People keep pointing this out and you just keep circling back to universalizing your own experiences.
Nobody said this. Once again, you’re making the entire issue all about you. Please stop doing that.
I didn’t intend that statement to imply that the entire world was just like the US, and I know there’s different dynamics in different societies.
But I’m clearly just rambling at this point, and I’m going to observe the first rule of holes and bow out of this thread, and go back to lurking.
I apologize again for the derailing.
FWIW mnekora, I think you can get there.
Maybe lurk more, and comment later when you’ve got a better sense of this place. Mistakes aren’t always fatal, so don’t feel like you are eternally persona non grata!
If it’s any help, I read Nekora’s comment about “the predominant religion in the US, and most places in the world” as meaning “the predominant religion of place A, B or C, whether it’s religion X, Y or Z” – not as meaning Christianity is.
Even so, that doesn’t mean atheists have it worse off than the members of that religion. Unless one’s trying to get a job in a religious organisation’s workplace (be that a school or hospital or charity, for instance) I very much doubt religion will come into it – and if it does, it’s not just atheists who might not be favoured. In thirty years’ work and lots of jobs, religion has never been an issue, or even mentioned for the most part. Only place I can think of where it was was in my first job, and that was just because there were three AoGs in the office. They weren’t trying to convert anyone, either, and were quite ready to join in laughing at the manager (who was one of them) and take the piss about him speaking in tongues because his everyday English was … ah, different.
I know, anecdata ain’t data, but I want to show an example of how being an atheist, or just nothing at all, means jack shit in some places, and the Great US Chip does not apply.
mnekora — just lurk on the rare religious thread. There’s quite a bit of bitter history to this one which is why so many of us pretty much just want to noptopus away.
Guys, what do y’all call That Thing that happened while I was on hiatus? You know, the reason we do not have this conversation anymore.
And my point is that I live in the US and it’s never been an issue for me here. This stuff is so strongly tied to region, family of origin, and a bunch of other things that generalizing about it is pointless.
(Like Argenti I would also love it if we didn’t have to keep repeating this conversation.)
Kitteh — even in the US inter-religion stuff gets weird. Like, generally speaking Christian (or the right sort thereof) privilege is a thing, but there are plenty of places // situations it isn’t. Was telling my mother about the exploding milk, and pecunium left out one important detail — he keeps a kosher kitchen — which led to a story from her first job. Reception at Jewish Family Services (exactly what it sounds like), her pepperoni and cheese cracker snack was suddenly “when we said snacking at your desk was fine, we didn’t mean that” and “please don’t nuke your pork” (apparently microwaves do not get not enough to make themselves kosher or something?). In any case, within that context, not being Jewish wasn’t a problem per se, but you were going to have follow Jewish customs, at least enough not to offend the clients or de-kosher the microwave.
And then there are the places where pecunium’s a heathen idol worshiper cuz the Virgin Mary. (pecunium, you run into that or not really cuz major cities aren’t so fundy?)
So yeah, even here it depends A Lot on region and context.
Also, may you pet a cactus just got upgraded to may you pet my stinging cactus, cuz damn that fucker hurts and then an hour+ later you’re like “wtf, how’d I get a bunch of blisters THERE?!” (This is me on break from repotting cactī cuz every last one got me at least once)
There seems to be some disagreement in SJ circles whether oppression within a larger culture automatically translates to oppression within all subcultures as well, or whether it’s possible for the oppression to be nonexistent or even reversed in certain situations. I believe the latter although there are reasonable arguments for the former.
Yeah, the US alone is such a huge, varied country that it seems bizarre to generalise, unless one goes for things like “WTF is it with so many governments/institutions there?” or “the NRA should really, really go live on Reddit Island”.
Not sure what you mean about when you were on hiatus, Argenti – I’m thinking of the exodus but that was before I was here, and wrong subject.
Not having been here as long as you guys, this subject doesn’t get me pulling my hair out (yet!); it’s less talking-to-a-brick-wallish than dealing with trolls, because the people lapsing into AssholeAtheist mode are not assholes in general, and I have some hope that they’ll get the point. Even so, there have been a few threads where I ended up bowing out ‘cos they got into theology or whatnot, and were pretty painful (as in, tedious and pointless, not personally unpleasant).
OT and I hope hellkell sees this: She Who Makes Fine Dresses aka Secret Lentil is an evil person. The Emphella Shell in olive! How dare she tempt me like that!!
Kitteh’s: I saw that! She is evil, I want all the new items.
@argenti aertheri
OW. You have my sympathies.
Thanks Marie. Tr longer needled one hurts more, but just in that “great, I just stabbed myself way”
Kitteh — yeah, I mean the exodus. There were some religion related fights leading up to the final fallout, if I follow the chain of events correctly.
Nekora: . I can definitely see why you, a Catholic, would not feel welcome there.
It’s not that I am a catholic (or whatever stripe of religion). It’s that I’m not an atheist. The difference may seem irrelevant, but it’s not. I see (often) the argument that those who aren’t atheists are fundamentally less intelligent/meritorious/worthy of being considered.
As used, it’s active bigotry.
the representation of groups in politics compared to their actual population proportion IS in fact an indicator of how well and how fairly society treats a particular group. Not a perfect one, by any means.
Ermn… no. Let’s take Catholics. They don’t get treated well; in the ways in which religious society in the US goes about things (I have several tracts in my garage right now; because this is trash day, which were posted about my neighborhood, explaining that The Catholic Church is the “Whore of Babylon” referred to in Revelations; and anyone who is a member of the Catholic Church is damned, because they serve demonspawn: honest).
A significant chunk of “missionary outreach” on the part of both fundie-evangelicals, and Mormons, is aimed at Catholics. It’s hard to be elected to office as a Catholic (once you move out of the NE/Fla/the American SW).
But, if you were to look at the Supreme Court you would have a hard time telling that. A majority of the Court is Roman Catholic. But even in the parts of the country where being a Catholic isn’t a bar to being elected, living as one is sometimes fraught. want to guess what comes up if “The Church” is mentioned?
Yep, pedophile priests. And the implication is that anyone who doesn’t leave, shaking the dust from their sandals, is on board with that. A lot of the time it’s not implied at all.
But, “respect” and decent treatment don’t translate to political office. There aren’t any unstructured Quakers in office (I say unstructred, because Nixon was a structured Quaker, which is basically Presbyterian). They get lots of praise, but they can’t get elected.
Why? Because they are pacifist, and socially liberal.
So why are the Cathlics appointed to the Supreme Court? Because they are seen as useful: they let the Democratic presidents nominate someone the Republicans will sign off on; because they are presumed to be influenced by the Pope on Abortion (though not on capital punishment).
Do I think the majority religion (prot-christianity, of a recent vintage) is a problem? Fuck yeah. I’d like someone’s spiritual life to be a non-issue (not least because I have lots of very minority religious people in my circle of friends/family, as well a lot of atheists).
And this is where I’m going to make a tone argument: Pharyngula, et al., are not enlisting me to their cause. They are, in fact; to some degree, driving me away.
Why? Because being told I’m a delusional fool who needs to give up my sincere beliefs because they are bad for humanity; is offensive. If it’s not “meant” as offensive, then they people saying it are deluding themselves.
I don’t believe that. I don’t believe it, because I have seen it declared; they mean to offend. I know too much about human nature to think that theism is the cause of our ills. I know too many atheists who would make a world no less unjust (more actually; the Galtian Libertarain Atheist isn’t rare) to think that the problem is theists.
It’s people.
And telling people who agree that you aren’t being treated fairly that they are evil; not helping. Which is what lots of Atheists do,and aplogetics for that are no more plausible than stupid apologetics for the shitty aspects of religious beliefs are.
And no, I am not saying you’ve said this. I’m saying the same things which make you touchy about certain sentiments, make those who are religious, and agree atheists get treated less than well, touchy about certain turns of phrase.
And “we care about true/false beliefs” is gonna set them off: every time.
Argenti: I have a nasty sense of humor: I call it The Great Divorce.
And then there are the places where pecunium’s a heathen idol worshiper cuz the Virgin Mary. (pecunium, you run into that or not really cuz major cities aren’t so fundy?)
If you are Catholic, you get it. In areas where there are more Catholics it comes up more, actually. I’ve also encountered people who ask about the horns on Jews.
The summation (from my POV) is there were several blow-ups which centered on religion (and Christianity, in specific). Then a truly nasty comment catalysed some other issues which had been simmering, waiting to boil over.
Then it got ugly for a bit. A lot of it was (so I understand it) done in private discussions.
W H A T
(God damn you, Michaelangelo.M)
From what I have gleaned, this was (coincidentally) about last August, and since I’ve been an active commenter since early 2012 at least, and I don’t recall any such thing except suddenly peeps mention “that blow-up a few months ago,” I thought it must have mostly been on the fora or private, myself.
I do know I haven’t seen several formerly-regulars here in about a year, but life happens and I’ve been trying not to jump to conclusions.
Falconer: It’s not Michelangelo’s fault. He didn’t create the idea, and I don’t think the people who asked it had ever heard of him (if they had, they’d certainly not seen the statue; even in image).
Sorry.
Falconer: I’m sorry. I wasn’t upset/offended. It’s just that Michelangelo is an interesting figure, and for all his faults (his relations with women were odd, until he was in his 60s he didn’t use women as models for women) that bit of anti-semitism ought not be blamed on him; but on some really bad translation a few centuries before.
Heh – there was a show I saw once where the main character asked why Michelangelo’s women all look like men with boobs that were stuck on with an ice-cream scoop. All is now explained. 😀
RE: Argenti
As far as multi representation goes… I just have gotten used to getting a pained look on my face whenever anyone goes, “Oh, there’s a multi in there!” Because I just KNOW they’re going to be evil and violent, or helpless and constantly victimized. (Or, worst of all, the butt of a bunch of jokes because LOLZ MULTI.) It’s very tiring. Not including media us or our friends have made, I have seen TWO fictional pieces of media where there are two multiples in the same room–and one, it was two Batman villains.
RE: pecunium
I have a nasty sense of humor: I call it The Great Divorce.
I’m a bad person. I laughed. And yeah, the Great Divorce happened while we were still sitting in a corner, too spacy to do more than convert oxygen into carbon dioxide safely. I think it did mostly happen on the parts of the forum I never got access to, so *shrug*
Also, to completely change the topic (because oh god, AGAIN?), WE GOT A CALL FROM OUR DISABILITY PEOPLE. o_o They said they approved our claim, but I ain’t believing jack shit until that magical letter is in my hot little hand (in a couple of weeks). But oh my god, guys, we might have like, real money again! We might no longer have to quake in fear over what our housing situation would be!
I HAVE ALL OF THESE FEELINGS AND NONE OF THEM ARE SURE WHAT THEY ARE.
(It’s times like this I am SO GLAD to be multi. My sister was able to handle all the phone conversation while me and Sneak ran around in circles and flailed in the background.)
Yay for disability people doing what they’re supposed to do!