Men’s Rights Redditors wonder why nobody else realizes that the ladies aren’t oppressed any more

@hellkell

Getting elected to public office isn’t a right, so what else right-wise am I missing as an atheist?

I’m living in a county where the courthouse just erected signs saying IN GOD WE TRUST over its public entrances, and the criminal court judge stated in open court that the defendant in front of the court at that moment, who identified as an atheist wiccan, worshipped Satan because he wasn’t a Christian.

I don’t know what you’re missing, right-wise, but I’m missing some of my first amendments rights and my right to a fair and impartial trial.

All the U.S. currency also says IN GOD WE TRUST, which might be construed as an establishment of religion.

Hellkell

I will be the first person to admit that white atheist dudes like me have it pretty good. Atheists definitely do not experience the same kind of oppression tht women and POC’s do, to name a couple groups. But that certainly does not mean that atheists do not have legitimate social grievances.

We, as atheists, have it pretty nice, I think, for one large reason: you can’t “look like an atheist”. I can hang up my atheist hat in real life, and nobody knows about it. On the other hand, you can “look Muslim”, and you definitely can’t stop being a woman when it suits you either. For the most part, atheists can hide and blend in, and we avoid the worst oppression that way. People react to you differently if they know you are an atheist. The reactions can be downright hostile.

atheists are consistently thought of by much of the US population as untrustworthy, even evil. And take a look at what happens when atheists DO stick their heads out of hiding and try to be a bit more public. Even tasteful atheist ads on busses and billboards are met with floods of complaint and vitriol. And your dismissal of the fact that atheists are de facto barred from holding high public office is disturbing, Hellkell. Are you really going to claim that this isn’t an indicator of a deeper problem with the way society sees atheists? Seriously? Why do social justice activists care about women, POCs, an Muslims holding high office in America then? Are atheists an exception somehow?

I, myself, choose to keep my atheism untied to my real life identity out of fear of having trouble finding a job when employers google me, for example, and I have to be very careful talking with coworkers and acquaintances and even some friends, when many topics come up. There’s a lot of microaggressions atheists deal with from society all the time. Many gay people also present in their professional lives as straight for similar reasons.

Hellkell, it’s certainly justified to mock people who seem to believe that white atheist men have it SOOOOO bad in their lives and try to win the proverbial oppression Olympics. But please don’t minimize the legitimate social justice problems that affect atheists. Just because we have the same rights as the religious on paper doesn’t mean that everything is fine. MRAs claim that since women “legally” have all the same rights as a man now, that women can’t be oppressed. It’s just not true. Women don’t have the right, in practical terms, to express controversial opinions on the Internet without getting a torrent of vitriol for it. Atheists don’t have the right to be open about their beliefs without worrying that their social status and careers won’t suffer for it. Both of these things are problems. Women have it worse, as a group, than atheists, definitely. But what the hell happened to intersectionality? Don’t throw atheists under the bus just because we don’t have it as bad as certain other people.

mnekora, are you going to address any of my points?

Because you’re sure demonstrating the derailing one.

Also, Katz,

Sorry that my tone came across as trying to excuse asshole behavior, or complain about people being mean to me. I have to admit that I didn’t know everything going on in this discussion, with the personal histories and all.

Nepenthe’s comments were more confusing to me than anything else, but ind hindsight, I see that they were much more assholish than I first grasped upon reading them. I apologize for derailing and defending said hurtful comment.

Ah… forgot to say, there was no reason to bring up religious people in that thread; not one. It was a gratuitous dig.

Which is why I am not comfortable there; and comment rarely,and usually in a driveby manner.

Pecunium, I don’t think there is anything wrong with you; we simply have differing beliefs about the supernatural. If you had a discussion with me about your religion, I would assume you had the same motivation (a concern for the truth) as I do. Sorry that my wording implied that you did not care about the truth.

As for that pharyngula comment, to be fair, I think “Christian apologists” was referring to people like William Lane Craig, or Sye Ten Bruggencate, referring to professional apologists. But yeah, Pharyngula comments can be great and it can be shitty. I usually think they are right, but diplomatic, they’re not. I dont really like commenting there myself, even though I follow and like PZ himself.

mnekora: That’s a generous reading of a blanket statement. Given that most of that thread (including that comment) was about how to be a clear communicator, and the other iterations of knee-jerk anti-theism, I’m not giving them that leeway: I assume they said what they meant; they make exceptions to assuming people are just poor communicators if they are engaging in Christian apologism.

It may not be what they meant, but it’s what they made a point of saying.

When they mention Christian apologists and apologetics, they mean a very specific kind person engaged in a specific kind of public advocacy.

And…that makes it okay to assume that there’s “something wrong” with those people?

Oh boy, we’re going here again? David’s going to need a widget in the sidebar with a dedicated “you want to discuss religion? Do it here” thread, it’s like deja vu all over again!

“…and the criminal court judge stated in open court that the defendant in front of the court at that moment, who identified as an atheist wiccan, worshipped Satan because he wasn’t a Christian.”

Well fuck. My pagan // atheist ass has certainly been accused of satanism before, but in court?!

Part of my problem with all this though is that “theist privilege” ignores all the major religions (and of course the less well known ones too) that are openly vilified — Islam for example, or the micro-aggressions Jews face (anyone here care to answer how annoying “ze totally jew’ed me” is to a Jew? Cuz I usually want to smack my father for it)

Like, literally last night I had another case of assuming I’m Jewish (I give zero fucks, it actually amuses me some [told ya pecunium!]) — that part was fine, whatever, I don’t get it but hey, think I’m Jewish, whatever — the rest? “jewish women are so hard to impress” and how a mutual Jewish friend acts like a Jewish lady.

So yeah, I’m a bit wary to say that the side eye I get for saying atheism (my default answer when I suspect pagan is going to get me DEVIL WORSHIPPER!!) is worse than what some theists get. Even if they’re more acceptable as political candidates (though, um, see the “Obama is a Muslim” shit on whether all theists are electable)

And, in things that surprise no one, I’m with pecunium on these bits —

“Because guess what, I value true/not true as well. I value the difference between true and false beliefs less so. Actions matter.”

“I’m a big believer in, “by their fruits shall ye know them”, and that means I can be tolerant of a lot of people who believe things I think are false. Because it’s no skin off my nose.”

Which is really quite good because otherwise we’d potentially hate each other and that’d be sucky (I am very unfond of his god, the Christian god, which gets me way more shit than just not believing anything does…lucky for me he’s never expressed so much as annoyance at this)

——

It would appear that my gods at present as pea sized and fond of bloodworms and brine shrimp, and chewing on my nails. Less fond of me continuing to insert plants in their tank, but I’m prepping for the 30g move that’ll probably happen this weekend.

Idolatry!!! (‘Tis a joke if that’s not clear)

Atheists, as a whole, believe that the religious hold factually incorrect beliefs, and may or may not be shy about saying so.

But boy do some of them get shitty if someone suggests their belief that there is no god is factually incorrect.

See, mnekora, it’s what pecunium said: by their fruits shall ye know them*. If someone’s belief isn’t hurting others, whether through personal actions or public/instituional policy, then it’s nobody else’s fucking business to get all smug about it being “wrong” or “delusional” or whatever. My beliefs are largely unverifiable and the reactions of one or two fundamentalists (“you are deceived by a demon!”) one or two atheists (“you’re deluded and need to see a shrink!” – never mind two psychologists I’ve seen for other reasons have been “Yay happiness!”) and one asshole Spiritualist (“you’re not doing what I say is the way!”) says a lot more about them than it does about me.

So yeah, people who devolve into Asshole Atheists and make idiotic sweeping comments about how terrible all religion, all belief is, who talk as if everyone not-atheist was a Santorum clone, as if everywhere is the same as the worst of small-town America – well, they just lose my sympathy for their problems real fast.

*except mango, obviously.

mnekora: I’m not a never-reader of Pharyngula. Yes,I saw the “A”pologtics. It’s weak sauce. Because I’ve also seen the, “Not all Theists Are Like That” and the sudden screeds, out of nowhere; off-topic” about how nasssty religious people are.

And, given the context; assuming the subtext of “professional apologists for asshole christianity” was (at best) poor communication, in a comment about being careful to make one’s self plain to the readership.

I’m not trying to beat you up. I’m explaining why reactionary politics; oppression olympics, as it were, and the urge to lash out at The Group, isn’t the best of behaviors.

This is a common theme in my attempts to oil waters. I try to do it only when I can’t bite my tongue anymore, because it can come across as tone-policing.

What it is is me, a person, not liking my toes stepped on, especially when the stepper came across the room to to do it. Do they feel aggrieved? Yep. Do I know why? Yep. Do they have some cause for that grief? Yep.

Does it mean I have to put up with being smacked because of what someone else did? Nope.

That’s the thing that puts me off Pharyngula – it’s very asshole atheist, which really detracts from its good qualities, for me. Leaves a sour taste in the mouth after reading some threads. Like – what the FUCK is it to Asshole Atheists how other people’s inner lives work? There also seems to be a real STEM condescension sometimes, what cloudiah aptly called educational privilege.