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narcissism open thread playing the victim rape culture trigger warning victim blaming

Open Thread for discussion of Ariel Castro statement, sentencing. TRIGGER WARNING for whole thread.

Some commenters here have started discussing the Ariel Castro sentencing — and the remarkable, delusional, self-pitying, victim-blaming statement he made before being sentenced — in the Minter Meltdown thread. Because so much of what he said — and so many of the issues raised — are potentially triggering, I thought it would be good to open up a separate thread for this.

Here’s a piece at the Daily Beast with some of the most astounding quotes from Castro’s statement today.

Consider this whole thread to have a TRIGGER WARNING on it for discussions of Castro’s rape apologias and victim blaming.

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Hyena Girl
Hyena Girl
7 years ago

Pardon me while I go somewhere else for a little bit and shout swears, and perhaps jump up and down a little.

Shadow
Shadow
7 years ago

All I can say is that I wish him a long, lucid and utterly miserable life. I hope that his every waking moment is filled with regret, sadness and loneliness and that his nights are plagued with nightmares.

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
7 years ago

Thanks for providing a safe space to try to process this horrific case, David.

bodycrimes
7 years ago

My only thought is – how many more women are chained in cellars? We’ve had the Natascha K. case in Austria. The Fritzl case in Austria, cases in the UK, and now this. They’re all the same story. Older man kidnaps girl and forces her to live in cellar. Rapes her repeatedly. Is caught and ends up in loony bin.

That there are so many makes me think there are more women and girls out there, locked in cellars.

cloudiah
7 years ago

So far, r/mr, The Spreadhead, and AVoiceforMisogynists are silent on the sentencing.

At one point, I was trying to make a search engine that would automatically search all the sites on the boob roll, but I got distracted.

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
7 years ago

Posting under a different e-mail for reasons I’m happy to discuss with David.

TRIGGER WARNING:

http://mensrightsboard.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/ariel-castro-is-misunderstood.html

Someone said to me the other day that they “could find a thousand abhorrent things said by feminists just by googling, but I bet you’d have a hard time finding something equally as awful by an MRA”.

Excuse me while I go and bathe. This kind of ick warrants the wire brush and dettol routine.

Chie Satonaka
Chie Satonaka
7 years ago

I know there is a lot of talk on other websites (news sites, Gawker, etc) about the plea deal and that it’s an “outrage.” I for one am in favor of it. Just look at what this asshole was able to say during his brief sentencing. Imagine what it would be like for these women to have to testify at trial, with him sitting right there staring at them, and being forced to relive every moment of their torture, and see the media falling all over themselves to cover every lurid detail, and have all of it drag out over weeks. It’s a mercy that he doesn’t get his trial. He’s a narcissist — he loves this shit. Lock him in a room for the rest of his life.

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

Just a tiny technical nitpick – that piece is from The Daily Beast, not the Huffington Post.

Thanks for creating a separate thread for this, David.

MordsithJ
MordsithJ
7 years ago

Well, now that it’s on Manboobz I’m sure the manosphere’s hamsters are all a-spinning.

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

“Someone said to me the other day that they “could find a thousand abhorrent things said by feminists just by googling, but I bet you’d have a hard time finding something equally as awful by an MRA”.

Every time I think I’ve already run across the most preposterous thing I’ve ever read . . .

Glock H. Palin, Esq. (@GlockPalin)

I did not prey on these women. I just acted on my sexual instincts.

Biotroofs, anyone?

So far, r/mr, The Spreadhead, and AVoiceforMisogynists are silent on the sentencing.

Give them a little time, and I’m sure they’ll come up with some utterly appalling spin that blames it on women. It’s just going to take an extra bit of creativity this time, but I am fully confident the MRAs are up to the challenge.

Ally S
7 years ago

@myeyestheyburn

[Continued trigger warning for horrifying abuse and rape apologia]

Everyone is so quick to paint Ariel Castro as the bad guy just because he let 3 women stay with him thus offering them his protection. Ariel Castro gave these women a purpose. The only purpose they are on this earth for and a white knight who is a felon himself put these women back on the street where they can face real danger. When you get right down to it Ariel Castro is not really a bad guy just as Charles Ramsey is no saint. Charles Ramsey has been in and out of prison a lot and he even tried to kill his wife. No one takes into consideration that Castro himself is victim of child abuse and they don’t care that some felon has added to that abuse. They don’t care that a matriarchial society has victimized Castro because all they want is the blood of a man,any man. When Charles Ramsey goes on to victimize one of your brothers,uncles,fathers,nephews or male cousins then we’ll see if you still regard him as a hero.

No comment.

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
7 years ago

No kidding.

I don’t understand why so many young men I know identify with the MRM and bash feminism, refusing to acknowledge that the MRM is so often spouting horrible ideas like in the link above yet always happy to call on the old “man-hating women’s club” remarks from feminism decades ago. That isn’t to say there aren’t man-haters who are self-proclaimed feminists. But I’ve found the real difference is that there are thousands of feminist sites I can find that actively work towards making the world a better place through activism and fundraising, but few men’s rights sites that are anything but angry, sometimes seemingly-psychotic males with a chip on their shoulder. That and there seems to be a creepy correlation between racism and anti-feminism, and that rings true with those I know in person sadly.

Defending this piece of shit though? WTF is wrong with people?

franky tea
franky tea
7 years ago

I don’t understand why so many young men I know identify with the MRM and bash feminism, refusing to acknowledge that the MRM is so often spouting horrible ideas like in the link above yet always happy to call on the old “man-hating women’s club” remarks from feminism decades ago

My guess is because they agree with whose awful things

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

If someone started repeating MRA talking points in my presence they would very quickly become a former rather than a current friend.

Glock H. Palin, Esq. (@GlockPalin)

But I’ve found the real difference is that there are thousands of feminist sites I can find that actively work towards making the world a better place through activism and fundraising, but few men’s rights sites that are anything but angry, sometimes seemingly-psychotic males with a chip on their shoulder.

This. A thousand times this. You can find some hatefulness on the fringes of feminism, but the movement as a whole is actually about *doing something*, about making the world a better place. For MRAs, the hatefulness *IS* the movement. Get rid of the hate, and there’s practically nothing left.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Well, there’s still the whining about not getting enough sex with hawt ladies. No lack of that in the MRM.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Yeah, I would find new people (if possible) if those around me were spouting mra talking points and agreeing.

In other news, WordPress can eat a bowl if bees. It won’t load for me on two browsers on two separate computers, only my phone. Anyone else having issues?

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
7 years ago

Fortunately I wouldn’t call most of these people my friends, I never made that effort as they made their agenda known quickly enough for me to run like hell. Two, who I initially had hope for, I certainly don’t any longer (I drew the line at “females are the major perpetrators of sexual violence because I read it on the internet”) and one I am tiring quickly of, but I live with them (thankfully they are not actively identifying with the cause, just deny that women are disadvantaged… which is awful, yes, but at least I’m spared the Farrell quotes).

Turning the discussion away from my own experiences, though, sometimes I genuinely worry how people who are spoonfed this kind of stuff might impact the future. There are enough assholes already, for example, in government. I hope the new generation won’t be as bad or worse.

I’m liking that the paternity laws around rape are being reviewed though. It’s a step in the right direction and I hope Amanda Berry and her daughter never have to go through the kind of pain that many mothers already do when abusive fathers seek access to their children. It looks like he’ll be locked up for life though, thank goodness.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

I was having WordPress issues last week. Apparently it singles us out one by one just like the blockquote monster.

Karalora
Karalora
7 years ago

MRAs defend Ariel Castro because he actually did what they only fantasize about doing.

Xen
Xen
7 years ago

“I did not prey on these women. I just acted on my sexual instincts.”

Then maybe your “sexual instincts” need to be cut off.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Myeyesburn: spoofed what, mra stuff? I think that’s something you have to go looking for. I’m more worried about the bog standard sexists that are everywhere.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Shorter Castro – words mean whatever is most convenient for me.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
7 years ago

Have to say I think life in prison is exactly the right thing to do. He’s obviously unrepentant, so he needs to be locked away for public safety; I don’t think there’s a realistic chance of rehabilitation in this case, so there’s no reason to let him out.

But I still think chaining him up and beating him would be society lowering itself that bit closer to his level.

(In response mainly to augzilliary upthread.)

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
7 years ago

“Myeyesburn: spoofed what, mra stuff? I think that’s something you have to go looking for. I’m more worried about the bog standard sexists that are everywhere.”

Sorry, Hellkell, I think I misunderstand you. What about spoofs?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Agreed. It’s a very bad idea to suggest state-supported vengeance. Nothing good lies along that path. Keeping him locked up so that he can’t do it again, otoh, is what judicial systems are for.

MorkaisChosen
MorkaisChosen
7 years ago

Ideally I’d like judicial systems to rehabilitate people so they won’t do it again after they’re released but… well I read those things he said, and if he’s gonna do it again it’s better not to release him.

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

“But I still think chaining him up and beating him would be society lowering itself that bit closer to his level.”

I also agree with this. Largely because someone has to do the state-ordered chaining and beating and I don’t think that’s healthy for anyone’s psyche. And I don’t support capital punishment. So life without parole is the harshest sentence I will support, and this guy deserves the harshest sentence.

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
7 years ago

Oh, sorry. Spoonfed. I’m an idiot at 8 in the morning. It all makes sense now.

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

Am I correct that there might be some typo-generated confusion between the words spoonfed and spoofed occurring?

grumpycatisagirl
7 years ago

Oh, my first time getting ninja’ed here, I think!

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
7 years ago

Lol. First time I’ve ever ninja’d. I’m usually late to the party.

eumenidis
eumenidis
7 years ago

@myeyestheyburn
“Defending this piece of shit though? WTF is wrong with people?”

A variation of the same thing that’s wrong with people who’re defending George Zimmerman.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
7 years ago

Yeah, usually I’d be in favor of attempting rehabilitation, but it seems to be a lost cause in this case. Which doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be a good idea to gear the system towards that goal in general, since if you have a system that doesn’t attempt rehabilitation you end up with it spitting more efficient criminals out the other end.

I’m just not expecting even the best system to be able to do anything to reform Castro, given that he seems to feel no remorse at all. You can’t rehabilitate someone who doesn’t think they did anything wrong.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Myeyesburn: i meant spoonfed but the autocorrect didn’t like that

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
7 years ago

I’ll be honest, Eumenidis, I had no idea what the whole Zimmerman fiasco was about at first or what the problem was, though I knew nothing about it before the verdict. That might reflect badly on me as a person or at least as far as having a sociological perspective goes. People, understandably, found it very hard to talk about when I asked so in absence of a direct explanation by my friends I researched for a few hours instead. The bias in favour of Zimmerman was pretty appalling from a lot of mainstream news sites and made it very hard to discover his background and character. Although, I’m still not familiar enough with the law to decide if the jury was in the wrong based on what was presented in court, though Zimmerman WAS wrong in what he did (playing cop) and therein lies an issue with the system.

Racial violence and profiling here is also an issue, but one that is grossly underepresented in media and largely ignored by bystanders. Last I remember hearing about it was a series of racially motivated attacks against international students, but there was a lot of pressure to catch the culprits because it was damaging the income of universities and tourism. Since then I know of attacks that have occurred, but the papers barely mention it. We don’t like to acknowledge racism exists here :/

freemage
freemage
7 years ago

myeyesburn: The major blame-holders in the Trayvon Martin case are Zimmerman for his actions, and Florida law (specifically, the ‘stand your ground’ law) that was used to justify them. It’s reasonable also to argue that the law itself was misapplied (and thus, the jury was dysfunctional), since it’s been shown by circumstance that it’s highly unlikely that the law would’ve done the same thing if the situation had been reversed. (Ie, if Trayvon HAD been legally armed, and at some point in their altercation had shot Zimmerman instead, he most likely would’ve been convicted, even though he had a better claim to be ‘standing his ground’ than Zimmerman ever did.) There’s also a strong suggestion that the prosecution and judge flubbed the jury instructions–thereby making it less likely they would correctly apply the law.

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
7 years ago

I love rehabilitation models and support every effort to instate them in prisons. Not everyone can be rehabilitated and I doubt Castro can, but at least with ongoing counselling and schooling it might be easier to determine who CAN’T be released. I’ve always been of the opinion that if a psychologist in court can declare that someone is a remorseless sociopath, then the psychologists who assess them before parole should be able to do the same (though some will always slip through the cracks, any improvement is a good improvement with public safety at risk). And for other criminals, having that opportunity to work through their issues, learn and be given the potential to do something productive with their lives when they are released will hopefully prevent re-offending. I hate the notion that prisoners should be treated like they are subhuman. Some are terrifying monsters who deserve to be kept away from the public, but total deprivation of liberty should be enough of a punishment (isn’t that something we all fear?). Others, who can acknowledge their errors and be compassionate, deserve the opportunity to work on their flaws and move past their criminal career.

freemage
freemage
7 years ago

auggziliary: The quote was from a link further up-thread. Whether the blogger was serious or trolling is hard to say, but honestly, it’s still a vile piece of misogynistic shit.

drst
drst
7 years ago

There was another story in California this week of a 15 year old girl who was found in captivity, being periodically locked into a box and starved and of course raped repeatedly by two adult men who were running a marijuana farm. The cops weren’t looking for the girl; they showed up to bust the farmers and discovered her.

As for Castro, I don’t support violence against prisoners, but this is one case where a lifetime of solitary confinement seems fitting to me. And I don’t need to think Charles Ramsay is a saint to be glad he did a good thing when this moment arrived and helped those women, instead of turning his back on them.

Ally S
7 years ago

@freemage

It’s Masculist Man, so I don’t know if it’s a joke or not. The pessimist in me says he’s 100% serious.

myeyestheyburn
myeyestheyburn
7 years ago

@Auggziliary – I wish it was a troll. I had hope when I found this:

http://mensrightsboard.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/warningfake-mens-rights-site.html

But it’s actually a warning about the Good Men project and how evil feminazis are using it to coerce the men into positions of self-hating subservience.

I know of a few others in the AU Men’s Rights spheres that are just plain awful. One has his own radio blog that would be hilarious if it wasn’t so fucked up. My friend had some horrible experiences with one of the most vocal of these assholes, which we had initially wanted to share here on Manboobz but it became apparent that there is a need to protect her identity and safety since the creep actually threatened violence against her and the format through which they communicated makes her easily identifiable. :/

Ally S
7 years ago

And I don’t need to think Charles Ramsay is a saint to be glad he did a good thing when this moment arrived and helped those women, instead of turning his back on them.

Yeah, if there’s anyone with an abusive history I’d respect, it’d be someone who unequivocally expresses sincere motivation to atone for hir previous crimes. (Ramsey said that his intervention was done for the sake of atoning for what he did to his wife when he was an abuser.)

KathleenB
KathleenB
7 years ago

Following an extremely stupid move by my uncle that resulted in him getting caught in a roadblock set up to find Ted Bundy (who had been loose in the high country of CO), my mom ended up in the same police station as Bundy and made VERY accidental eye contact with him. She once told me that his eyes were terrifying – that there was nothing behind them. I never really understood that until the CNN camera cut to Castro during Michelle Knight’s victim statement. His eyes are… just empty. And he was smirking. I don’t think I have ever closed a browser tab faster.

freemage
freemage
7 years ago

In before Quark manifests to tell myeyestheyburn that her friend shouldn’t worry because, “Online threats of violence almost hardly never actually lead to real violence, except when they do, but those times don’t count, and also the lights are not flickering I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

KathleenB
KathleenB
7 years ago

Agh, the first ‘him’ should be my uncle. Who had something like six hundred pounds of weed in his trunk when he got stopped.

Ally S
7 years ago

@me

Yeah, if there’s anyone with an abusive history I’d respect, it’d be someone who unequivocally expresses sincere motivation to atone for hir previous crimes. (Ramsey said that his intervention was done for the sake of atoning for what he did to his wife when he was an abuser.)

Oops! I meant to say “If there’s any previously abusive person I’d respect…”

I didn’t mean to say that I could respect an abusive history.

KathleenB
KathleenB
7 years ago

WTF, my typos are disappearing? I swear I caught the problem just as I hit the post button…

KathleenB
KathleenB
7 years ago

auggziliary: Yeah. Odd enough, that’s the part of the story that no one seems to believe. My grandpa had partly financed the whole thing because (I’m told) weed was cheap as fuck here in Michigan and scarce on the west coast. He was NOT PLEASED to lose that much money, and even less happy when grandma found out.

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