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Men’s Rights hate site A Voice for Men finds a woman to blame for Trayvon Martin’s death

Rachel Jeantel, Men's Rights scapegoat
Rachel Jeantel, Men’s Rights scapegoat

Well, it took them a little while, but the folks at Men’s Rights hate site A Voice for Men have finally figured out an angle on the Trayvon Martin case. According to regular AVFM contributor August Løvenskiolds, the whole thing can be blamed on a woman — specifically, Rachel Jeantel, the friend of Trayvon Martin who was on the phone with him just before he was killed.

According to Løvenskiolds, who seems to know more about what happened that night than it is in fact possible for him to know,

During a post-trial interview with Piers Morgan on CNN, Rachel Jeantel, the reluctant phone witness who was talking to Martin just before Martin assaulted Zimmerman, finally revealed that she had warned Martin that Zimmerman might be gay, or even, a gay rapist preparing to approach Martin.

This isn’t news; Jeantel said in her testimony that she told Martin she was afraid the man following him might be a rapist. But Løvenskiolds moves quickly from “sworn testim0ny” to “making shit up.”

Martin freaked out over the idea that Zimmerman might have sexual designs on him or his family, and this seems to have precipitated the attack on Zimmerman – which, of course, would make the attack a violation of Zimmerman’s human rights as a (purportedly) gay man, and make Jeantel the proxy instigator of the attack.

Yes, that’s right, the whole thing was “violence by proxy” instigated by an evil homophobic woman.

Would you like some armchair psychoanalysis to go with your unfounded speculation?

So, Trayvon Martin was killed in the act of gay-bashing (in Jeantel’s and his own minds, anyway). The fury of Martin’s sudden turnabout attack is now explicable (he had been avoiding being followed up to the point of the introduction of the gay rapist idea) and it indicates the degree of Martin’s revulsion that he went from flight to fight mode in so short a time.

And this of course makes it all All About The Menz Rights.

The men’s human rights issues related to a woman (Jeantel) being held blameless for using gay/rape threats to precipitate man-on-man violence ought to be obvious.

It’s always a woman’s fault, isn’t it?

Elsewhere in the post, Løvenskiolds seriously suggests that when a police dispatcher told Zimmerman that “we don’t need you” to follow Martin, that was Super Seekret Man Code for “we actually DO need you to follow him.” No, really.

Such negative suggestions are as clear to savvy men as this: “Honey, you don’t need to buy me roses for Valentine’s Day” – meaning, of course, “if you know what is good for you, I’d better get flowers AND chocolate AND jewelry AND a nice dinner AND…”

The fact that the dispatcher further expected Zimmerman to meet with officers – drafting Zimmerman into the militia, as it were – made it clear to Zimmerman that his continued pursuit of Martin was expected by the police as well.

The societal expectation of militia service by all able-bodied adult males is certainly a men’s human rights issue and an indication of inequality between the genders that needs to be redressed.

MRAs may not be good at much, but they’ve got mental gymnastics down to a science.

EDIT: I added a graf after the first quote from Løvenskiolds clarifying that Jeantel says she did in fact tell Martin that she thought Zimmerman might be a rapist.

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Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

Effing blockquotes.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Unimaginative

Yeah, socialkenny’s just batting zero on the history today. CLEOPATRA lost her empire, not him. But hey, that conniving woman totally ruined everything, am I right?

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

Those conniving women always do. You know, trained from birth and designed by evopsych biology as they are.

Also completely missing: any acknowledgment that the evil beasts mentioned in the bible (snake, leviathan) almost always had the same imagery of contemporaneous goddesses. Yeah, the garden of eden snake was TOTALLY a dude.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

I never understood why I was supposed to be mad at Eve in that story. She is the reason human beings can tell the difference between good and evil. Give me ethics over Eden any day.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

I was very confused by that as well. I can remember reading the Garden of Eden story in Sunday school probably around age 5 or so, and my takeaway at the time was that, because Eve chose the apple, history happened. If she hadn’t done that, it would have been just Adam & Even in the garden, forever.

So, flash forward to my early twenties, I started learning about feminism, and a shocking number of the books I was reading opened with a story of the author’s pain, her whole life long, at being punished for Eve’s sin. Literally punished. I’m still boggling, twenty-something years later.

kittehserf
8 years ago

Rogan – I loved your comparison (think it was yours and not Mac’s) of masculinity to the big fierce-looking dog that runs yiping into the distance the minute anyone looks at it. Perfect comparison.

Didn’t Cleopatra cause the fall of the Roman Empire by introducing Caesar to buttsex and undermining his manly man manliness? History, dude, history!

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Kittehserf

Yeah. I mean, I’ve seen masculinity NOT done in the yipey-dog way, but it definitely is looking more a feature of the PERSON, not the masculinity.

It’s true. And then Cleopatra turned Ceasar into a beta and got on the alpha cock carousel with Mark Antony, laughing while Caesar cried and sat on a hard chair.

(Never mind that Egypt was among the NICER places to be a woman in, if you were stuck in that day and age. Women could actually own property there.)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

It was inadvertent.

Just like the last few times, huh? You’ve been told to knock it off, dude. Do so.

neuroticbeagle
neuroticbeagle
8 years ago

The Garden of Eden story is supposed to explain why people grow up. The Garden represents childhood and the apple the physical and mental (Adam and Eve realize they are naked! And they look different!) changes that occur with puberty. They get kicked out cause time doesn’t go backwards-once you grow up (physically at least-hard to consider mras grown ups) you can’t go back to being a child. The fact that Eve was the one to bite the apple explains why women mature (physically) faster than men and have to suffer pain in childbirth.

kittehserf
8 years ago

(Never mind that Egypt was among the NICER places to be a woman in, if you were stuck in that day and age. Women could actually own property there.)

Yup. I don’t know much about Ptolemaic Egypt, but during the New Kingdom at least, it was the place I’d choose to be a woman in the societies of that time we know anything much about. Hell, how many rulers thought the idea of women being able to go about their business without being attacked was something worth mentioning? Ramesses III did, he wrote about it on one of his monuments.

kittehserf
8 years ago

Hmm, seems I haven’t fed the blockquote monster lately!

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Idk, my only fondness for the garden of Eden story these days is that white wolf borrowed it to make Cain the father of all vampires (by all the gods, no really, all of them, is oWoD, and probably nWoD so much more interesting if you know your myths and religious legends)

LBT — I realize this is a completely different MST, but whichever of you (or the IS folks) was comparing Grey to predatory animals was hilarious.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ LBT

I both thank you and curse you for introducing me to the G0y subculture. Did you see the (multiple) part(s) where the guy who runs the cockduelling site claims that wanting to perform frottage with other men is part of the one and only True Masculinity? It’s a perfect inversion of classic homophobia – men who don’t want to rub up on other men are now officially unmanly.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

This is appropros of nothing, but I just stumbled on a graphic definition of the various forms of asexuality — http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/19/asexual-spectrum_n_3428710.html?1371648467

…I may have to print that for the next time my psych acts like my refusal to date is some obvious sign that I need massive help for my interpersonal issues. Like, I’m not interested, I am not upset by this, so why is she? (And seriously, there’s a reason I don’t date, I want your BRAIIINNS isn’t a good strategy with most people)

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

If it’s not bothering you, why is this something that your psych feels like she needs to address? I know I’ve said this before but I think you need a new therapist, because this one seems to have boundary issues.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Because it’s yet another thing that’s probably related to my history of trauma (ok, and so what if it is?)

And yeah, it’s looking like I’m going to need to get all hopped up on Ativan and call the insurance hotline thing (FTR, all hopped up here means 2/3~3/3 my allowed daily dose). The nonsense we discussed over email was kinda the last straw. I mean, I emailed the rantier version to pecunium when I first got back from the appt, and his reply? Do I want him to come up and explain wtf their appt’s do to me (I’m making a habit of coming back from my psych appt’s and doing an emotional dump on him)

In any case, primary sexual attraction and I are rarely in the same room, and I’m fine with having friends and not romantic partners (I am a cuddle slut, but that’s only semi-relevant) and hey, friends! *waves* hi guys!

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

She seems to want to push you into sink or swim situations in general, and although that’s one way of handling things (person is scared of spiders? make them sit in a room with one!), the fact that it seems to be her method of choice in most situations concerns me.

kittehserf
8 years ago

“…I may have to print that for the next time my psych acts like my refusal to date is some obvious sign that I need massive help for my interpersonal issues.”

Like Cassandra said, you need another psych. This one’s just another bullshit artist.

Fuck her, I’m fifty and never dated, never experienced primary sexual attraction with in-the-flesh persons, and am happy as a cat on ‘nip with that arrangement. Since when does dating indicate mental health? And what’s with the deriding of friendship? It’s like the NiceGuys(TM), like being someone’s friend without sex being involved is some huge horror at worst and just second-rate at best.

Why are so many shrinks unfit to psychoanalyse a flea …

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I’m picturing her counseling the Dalai Lama.

“So, you said that you’re a monk and that means you don’t have sex, nor do you attempt to date women. Is this about your mother? Was she very cold to you when you were a child?”

Seranvali
Seranvali
8 years ago

*shakes head in amazement*

If I remember my Roman history correctly (and it’s been thirty years since I studied classics, so I may have become hazy on the detail) the republic had been in trouble long before Cleopatra came on the scene. While the senate didn’t like Julius having so much power they put up with him until there was a viable alternative. They needed him and they needed his military genius and they needed his wealth. Julius didn’t “lose” his “empire” because of Cleopatra, he never had one in the first place. When Octavian showed up he was just what they were looking for. He was Julius’ heir, was an equally brilliant general and had bags of personal charisma. After Actium they begged him to become (I think the term was) Pater Patrii and gave him the title of Imperator as weasel words to avoid calling him king (they really didn’t like the idea of an hereditory monarchy) I’m sure Octavian had organized the whole show but the Senate accepted him, even if they had reservations. The ironic thing is that in trying to save the republic the senate was instrumental in destroying it and giving total power to one man. Augustus, for his time seems to have been a reasonable person and a good leader. They weren’t so fortunate in succeeding generations.

The republic would have fallen with or without Cleopatra, who, to me, seemed to be doing the best she could to protect Egypt’s independence and not some kind of evil femme fatale, luring men to their downfall. She was certainly a complicating issue but to suggest that 1. The Roman republic was Julius’ empire and he could somehow lose it is just silly. He was powerful but he was never emperor or that 2. She somehow managed to destroy the (non-existant) Roman Empire shows that SocialKenny has no clue about Roman history and, if genuinely interested should probably seek out a reputable history of the period, rather than relying on movies and NatGeo specials. There are many good texts out there and they aren’t hard to find.

And to compare her to Ms Jeantel is equally silly. She was on the phone with him and was afraid for his safety. A fear that turned out to be perfectly justified.

Seranvali
Seranvali
8 years ago

Agenti Aertheri said:

“…I may have to print that for the next time my psych acts like my refusal to date is some obvious sign that I need massive help for my interpersonal issues. Like, I’m not interested, I am not upset by this, so why is she? (And seriously, there’s a reason I don’t date, I want your BRAIIINNS isn’t a good strategy with most people)”

If you aren’t interested and are fine with that why is it any of her business? There isn’t a problem as long as your happy with the state of affairs, or lack thereof!

kittehserf
8 years ago

Cassandra – I find myself wanting to have a session with this alleged psych just to mess with her head.

Falconer
8 years ago

I shoulda known y’all would jump all over socialkenny and his historical misperceptions.

I wish I could say that his notions are bizarre, but sadly they’re very common.

I would just like to add that Julius Caesar didn’t have an empire, and Cleopatra didn’t bring it down. The empire was Augustus’.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: CassandraSays

I’m afraid the g0ys have stolen my snarky heart. I haven’t looked at the Cockrub Warriors guy since, really. I’m totally unsurprised though. They are incredibly self-righteous and self-conscious about their preference in sexual acts.

RE: Seranvali

Pretty much. I mean, Rome isn’t my strongest point (I mostly wanted to learn about Carthage, Egypt, and Judaea) but from what I’ve read, Cleopatra was pretty much desperately trying to juggle everything to keep Egypt out of Roman hands. Considering she had at least two siblings who wanted the throne, plus Roman intrigues, PLUS varying levels of support at home, I think she was pretty clever to have lasted so long. She was dealt a bad hand at the start, and she played well, but there’s only so much you can do in that kind of situation. Egypt was the bread basket of the ancient world; keeping the Romans away was pretty much a doomed enterprise.

Seriously, socialkenny probably couldn’t have chosen a worse subject in history, except for maybe contemporary Judaea.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

You guys are forgetting that Kenny is a PUA, therefore he believes that if he states any sort of ridiculous nonsense in an authoritative enough way women will be fooled by his manly alpha confidence into assuming that a. he knows what he’s talking about and b. we should offer him a blow job. Because alpha, that’s why.

The reception he’s getting demonstrates why, if you’re a lonely guy in search of dating help, PUA is really not the smart way to go.

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: CassandraSays

Yeah, I’m surprised he said he’d drown me with his historical knowledge, after that complete FAILURE of understanding.. Confidence is useless if it’s misplaced, ESPECIALLY when it’s so easy to prove that you’re factually wrong.

Also, oh god, we need brain bleach and brain recovery techniques. The day was going great until we had breakfast, and then it was sunk. Son of a bitch.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Kenny can’t string a coherent thought together, so much for him “drowning” anyone with his historical knowledge.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago
danielleparadis
8 years ago

David: Sorry I didn’t mean to imply you had made anything unclear one of the comments right above mine was just asking if Rachel had in fact said the gay rapist thing.

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

On a bit of good news, Derek Black, the son of Don Black (the founder and administrator of the racist site Stormfront), has renounced white nationalism. You can read more about Derek’s change of heart on the SPLC website, but this bit stands out to me:

In an E-mail (pdf) to the editor of this blog earlier this week, Black, 24, wrote that he had come to see the arguments of white nationalism as “principally flawed,” adding that he had realized that American society is marked by an “overwhelming disparity between white power and that of everyone else” and that white nationalism was really about “an entrenched desire to preserve white power at the expense of others.”

anadiomene122
anadiomene122
8 years ago

If a woman makes a dumb decision for a guy she thinks is handsome, would you blame him? Is he an evil tempter now? Was she innocent of her decision and some poor, poor victim of his handsomeness?

No, she was an evil hypergamous bitch riding the alpha cock carousel. Come on, @auggziliary, get with the program.

The only correct time for a woman to have sex is when an MRA wants it, and the only right person for her to have it with is him, obvs. Once she has sex with him once, she is supposed to be hooked for life because science. Women are evolved to be monogamous. Oh wait no, they aren’t, they’re natural born cheaters. Whichever, I keep getting that part mixed up.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Ok, evo psych time!

Women have a “bonding hormone” that they release during sex, but they only have so much of it (that part may be fundie nonsense, not evo psych)…so when they ride the cock carousel they use it all up making them unable to bond with a long term partner.

Men are programmed to be poly apparently, per evo psych I saw over the weekend. But that’s bad, because it causes wars because there are men without partners. And only Muslims are ever suicide bombers because they’ll get virgins for being martyrs. Relevance of that last piece of shit? Same article, so apply salt to the rest of the paragraph.

anadiomene122
anadiomene122
8 years ago

Yeah I’ve heard this.

1) Oxytocin (like so many neuromodulators and neurotransmitters) is a renewable resource. But people have different baseline levels due to genetic variation and probably environmental factors. There’s some evidence that autistic people and other people with empathy deficits aren’t as sensitive to oxytocin (or don’t produce as much in response to environmental cues) and thus have difficulty understanding social reciprocity, etc.

2) Men also release oxytocin during orgasm, but they supposedly have a second chemical release in addition to that (vasopressin). From the evidence that exists now, it looks as if cismen have lower baseline levels of oxytocin than women do on average, which is often touted as an explanation for why women are calmer and less violent. Lower baseline levels don’t necessarily mean less sensitivity, however– in fact, it may mean that smaller changes in the concentration of oxytocin in the brain can cause more noticable perturbations of the whole system. Also, I’m not up on the literature, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the variance of baseline oxytocin levels within sexes is as wide as it is between sexes.

The neuroscience behind this stuff is actually complex and not well understood. The evo psych studies are mostly riddled with methodological errors and full of wild speculation based on surveys and self-reports.

katz
8 years ago

Also, oh god, we need brain bleach and brain recovery techniques. The day was going great until we had breakfast, and then it was sunk. Son of a bitch.

Would a kitten knocking over dominos help?

kittehserf
8 years ago

I saw a passing mention of oxytocin last night, in a documentary called The Secret Life of Dogs. It was about the phenomenon (which I’d guess everyone here knows) about the bonding between humans and dogs during petting – that hormone’s released in both. Dogs get the same lower heart rate and blood-pressure benefits from cuddling up with humans as humans do. It all goes back to bonding with their mothers (and the dog kissing your face goes back to licking mum’s muzzle to get her to regurgitate food). I also presume it works the same with kitties, because the benefits work the same way.

@katz, love the kitty!

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

FTR, I know it’s bullshit when applied like that. Whereas saying it’s released during breastfeeding and encourages bonding with the kid makes actual sense.

Now I need kitteh video!

kittehserf
8 years ago

Heh – anything coming from evo psych faithful is almost guaranteed to be bullshit.

Falconer
8 years ago

I’ll work the can opener but I’m not throwing up for anyone.

anadiomene122
anadiomene122
8 years ago

Yeah the scientist in me just bristles at everything MRAs say about biology so I had to get that out…

kittehserf
8 years ago

I’ll work the can opener but I’m not throwing up for anyone.

The real reason humans evolved thumbs! Biology!!1!eleventy!!

Seranvali
Seranvali
8 years ago

LBT said:

“Pretty much. I mean, Rome isn’t my strongest point (I mostly wanted to learn about Carthage, Egypt, and Judaea) but from what I’ve read, Cleopatra was pretty much desperately trying to juggle everything to keep Egypt out of Roman hands. Considering she had at least two siblings who wanted the throne, plus Roman intrigues, PLUS varying levels of support at home, I think she was pretty clever to have lasted so long. She was dealt a bad hand at the start, and she played well, but there’s only so much you can do in that kind of situation. Egypt was the bread basket of the ancient world; keeping the Romans away was pretty much a doomed enterprise.”

To me she came across as a very astute political operator and her situation was desperate enough that she had to use every weapon and talent she possessed just to stay in the game but to suggest that equally competant politicians like Julius and Marcus Antonius were mere “putty in her hands”, as SocialKenny maintains, would be selling both men seriously short as well as being misandrist as hell. They knew what they were doing. Trade with Egypt was important and if they could bring Egypt to heel, as it were, by controlling Cleopatra, obviously they would try. It would save them from having to take Egypt by force of arms and destroying what they wanted to posess.

Octavian didn’t play that way, though, and was more than happy to drag her back to Rome as part of his triumph and rather than be humiliated that way she (probably) killed herself, although probably not via an asp (cobra? Eeeew!), poison would more likely have been her choice.

She played a losing game and played it well.

kittehserf
8 years ago

One more thing about Cleopatra that gets ignored – her daughter Cleopatra Selene’s success. She was raised with Octavia’s children (her half-siblings, iirc) in Rome and became queen of Mauretania. It doesn’t seem to fit the usual narrative that Cleopatra should have surviving children who did well in their circumstances, does it?

SittieKitty
8 years ago

My contribution to this thread is completely OT. Oxytocin is released during labour in order to cause contractions. We have it so well synthesized that we can give it to induce labour. And! We give it after baby’s been born in order to help contract the uterus to prevent postpartum haemorrhage.

(Let’s see if I can work this into the thread)

We are giving women who are delivering babies extra oxytocin in order to bond with people more (after they’ve been all hypergamous and slept with an Alpha and are now forcing their Beta husband to raise the Alpha’s child) in order to avoid their natural expenditure of oxytocin stores. Therefore, childbirth is misandry and we are totes facilitating female privilege by not forcing them to have no oxytocin left any more because they’ve used it up sleeping around.

(Not bad eh? I’m getting the hang of this evo-psych MRA bullshit)

Also, Falconer, Kirk-Piece of the Action-Amazing!! 😀

Falconer
8 years ago

Thanks, SittieKitty!

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

RE: Seranvali

Yeah, when I actually READ about Cleopatra, rather than the mythology she’s wrapped up in, i was fascinated. It’s one heck of a story! Also makes me want to learn more about Hatshepsut and Akhenaten.

RE: Kittehserf

I got to meet and speak with an author who wrote a series of fantasy books with Cleopatra’s daughter as the main character! I don’t remember if it was THAT daughter, per se (I know she had more than one child, don’t know how many made it to adulthood) but we had a cool conversation about Ptolemaic Egypt.

pecunium
8 years ago

SocialKenny: And to be clearer, Caesar (I believe) was so drunk on Cleopatra that he allowed his empire to fall just because of this 1 hot ass: hot-black ass might I add

1: Caesar didn’t have an empire (Julius never did, they killed him to prevent it, and his son Octavius [known as Augustus] won the battle to gain power; and then killed his 1/2 brother, Cleopatra’s son, to secure it).

2: Cleopatra wasn’t black. She wasn’t even “egyptian”, since the Ptolemies were Alexandrian Greeks.

You are as clueless about history (which you could look up) as you are about men and women.

@LBT- She was of lighter complexion because of that admixture or races, but nevertheless, according to the way Americans do it (assuming you live in America), once you have any sort of black in you; you’re classified as black and now white. So either way, it is what it is. But you’re right; she wasn’t pure black, but the blackness in her gave her that exotic appeal which they weren’t used to seeing in Rome. Anyway, different story.

Nope. 1: That’s not, “american”, that’s Southern White Supremicist/Jim Crow.

2: N. Africans aren’t black.

3: She didn’t have any N. African in her ancestry.

4: You are dumber than a box of rocks.

And don’t try schooling me on history, race, the Bible nor religion, because I’ll drown you…metaphorically.

Go to town son, just try it. So far you’ve failed to understand how the Roman Empire came to be, how the Ptolemaic Dynasty of Egypt came to fall (and from the evidence how they came to be), that N. Africa isn’t the same as Sub-Saharan Africa, the structure of Roman Armies (there is no way a foreign potentate can “get between” a legionary commander and his legions; this is why Generals were not allowed to bring their forces across the Rubicon, google, “alia iacta est” for the background on that).

You’ve also blown race relations in the US, in such a way as to imply you comprehend neither the scale of the country, the nature of its government, the variety of its polities, nor the differences between 50 years ago and today.

In short, you couldn’t argue your way out of a paper sack with a firehose.

pecunium
8 years ago

Octavian didn’t play that way, though, and was more than happy to drag her back to Rome as part of his triumph and rather than be humiliated that way she (probably) killed herself, although probably not via an asp (cobra? Eeeew!), poison would more likely have been her choice.

She might have used an asp (not a cobra) they are a pretty mild way to go, better than a lot of the poisons of the time.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

It’s apparently alea iacta est, score one for neither of us being able to spell in Latin? Mostly though this is me popping in to say I REALLY want to see Kenny try to school you on the Bible or religion, I’ll make the popcorn 🙂

sarahlizhousespouse
8 years ago

@ Argenti
I really like that definition link.

neuroticbeagle
neuroticbeagle
8 years ago

” I REALLY want to see Kenny try to school you on the Bible or religion, I’ll make the popcorn”

Any of the trolls trying to school pecunium on anything is bound to popcorn worthy.