Like a lot of people in the US of A, I am taking a long weekend. Posting may be a little light for a bit. So here’s an open thread for everyone else taking a long weekend. Or not. Use this thread for anything that’s not personal. Like misogyny, politics, kitties, you know the drill. (Though kitties are welcome in all threads, of course.)
I am hoping my long weekend turns out a bit better than that of the people in the Australian movie of that name from 1978, which I keep meaning to see. Apparently their little beach vacation doesn’t go so well, and they are attacked by … nature? At one point, I believe, they face off against an enraged dugong. (No, really.) The movie was recently remade, but apparently the remake wasn’t as good.
Stay tuned for more reviews of movies I haven’t seen and that I’m just giving vague impressions of based on things I’ve heard somewhere.
RE: SittieKitty
Yeah, I’m sorry you had to hear that. I’ve gotten shit like that too, and it’s never fun. I hope you’re okay.
The stats crash course is in the footnotes, over this way — https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lN4Ub-WvYKaRaNrcBl1vIpb1fKeYSwZTkB5Ion-qfkU/mobilebasic
And Ally, there’s no significant difference between cis and trans* women feeling accepted by peers, here, or in general. But apply huge amounts of salt, even collapsing the agree and disagree options…well, for here, 16 trans* women checked an agree option, 15 neither agree nor disagree, and 2 disagree (that 2 is the lowest of the disagree columns though — less trans* women disagree with feeling accepted here than they disagree with feeling accepted by peers or in general)
That sentence is one nightmare! More trans* women checked agree for acceptance by peers, and in general. We have the highest count for “neither agree nor disagree” but like I said, these values are TINY. (And FTR, we have the most “neither…” for cis women too)
So bearing in mind that I will not give an N of 36 the rubber stamp of approval, there doesn’t appear to be a difference.
@Argenti
That’s unfortunate that the results aren’t as reliable as desired, but it’s at least nice to hear that, even with such a small sample size, there’s a very small difference. ^_^
@LBT
Now I understand why there are so many womanists out there. I mean, I’ve certainly never had a problem with womanists, but for the longest time I thought “Hey, why is womanism still around? I see a lot of talk about women of color among feminists now!”
Oh, naivety, you’re such a pest.
I should perhaps note that I ran cis women v cis men and the difference in acceptance by peers is significant, and the difference in acceptance in general is approaching significance. So part of it is that cis women aren’t feeling terribly accepted compared to cis men (except here, there’s no statistical difference here [nor between either cis men or women and the collapsed “everyone not cis” group])
pecunium, I’m sorry you had to deal with that twice today 🙁 that sucks…
gillyrosebee, well he rates a 10/10 on my gofuckyourselfbility. So there’s that.
Thanks LBT, I’m in a good place right now, so it didn’t have the impact it could have. Last week wouldn’t have gone over so well. I guess it’s just one of those things people do, especially since I’m sure they assume things about my experience that aren’t accurate and that informs on how “easy” they think shit is to do.
Personally, I think there’s a real need for some sort of positive approach to teach men who are socially challenged or disabled how to negotiate that in the dating world and find a partner. Providing these men with a systematic but constructive approach to fulfilling their sexual/romantic desires and a “safe space” where they could talk about their issues with other men would be something I’d welcome. I’ve seen the consequences of there not being anything like this; they’re real, and I genuinely feel sorry for some men I’ve met who have a lot to offer a partner but are simply lost when it comes to navigating the often complex social codes around dating and courtship. Some of the loudest outcries I’ve heard against the sexual liberation of women have been from these types of guys, and it makes sense if you consider the fact that the clear cut and simple “rules” and roles that they imagine used to exist don’t anymore.
Game is not the antidote to this.
One of the biggest gripes I have with “Game” is that the techniques it teaches are exactly the last thing that any young man who has serious social challenges to overcome should be advised to use. I think what the less virulent strains of Game are trying to teach is charm and playfulness, the sort of flirtatious behavior that comes naturally to some. But of course, in the wrong hands, social moves that would come across as teasing can turn really ugly. Someone who already has a hard time understanding appropriate social boundaries *does not* need to be told that violating them deliberately is the best way to get dates. (Telling someone they have food on their face and laughing a little is different from telling someone they look desperate in their short skirt, for example. Very different.). Also, even if the techniques are simply snake oil that gives the socially awkward the confidence to go out there and take social risks, many socially disabled men would not have the ability to handle “hook up” culture and would ultimately be putting themselves in situations that could end up hurting them more than it does their “conquests”… then they retreat farther into Game to soothe their wounded pride. It really seems damaging to everyone involved, from what I’ve seen.
RE: Ally S
for the longest time I thought “Hey, why is womanism still around? I see a lot of talk about women of color among feminists now!”
Yeah, talking ABOUT is not the same as talking WITH. I realize I’m sounding like a massive downer here, when a lot of these subcultures are wonderful for people, but yeah. I’m a bitter old man, and I’ve seen too much in-fighting. (Oh, Sylvia Rivera…)
Obsidian-whatever really made me not want to read this thread anymore. His boringness was bad enough that it made me really not want to participate in what otherwise might have been fun conversation with cool kitties. . . but then he . . . yuck.
Good to know that he’s gone and I hope he doesn’t get to come back.
SittyKittie: it’s what it is. It’s been an exhausting day, and that’s only part of it. Basically (as I said before, but it was in the ObsFlake’s wallsotext so it may have been lost), am in a debate of the sort we have here, but it’s not here.
So the support is a lot less; the disingenuous is a lot more, the arguments are at least as stupid as the MRA, while being not MRA (and the MRA who did show up were barely called on their shit), Strawfeminsists everywhere (all men are rapists, no man is good,all sex is rape, Andrea Dowrkin is a player, one word fro a woman and it’s curtains, flirting will be outlawed), couple to all the usual goalpost moving.
I also have no rep, so I got called a dishonest actor, a liar, a hypocrite. Some good interaction was had (but the level of, “you need to do the work for me was painful: esp. because [of course] people had done the work, but they needed to be spoon fed). References were ignored, personal testimony was discounted (he, after all, doesn’t believe the levels of reported harassment are true, ergo it’s overblown to the point of being completely discredited).
He even (are you listening Obsidian) explained why a woman who tells you she has a partner/boyfriend/husband, isn’t really turning you down: there are lots of poly-people in SF/F fandom; she might just be letting you know she’s going to be spending some time with him.
And while the woman who had been raped when she was younger (young: no, younger than that; even younger) victim was told she was culpable for any other women her rapist vicitmised, he has no responsibility for any of the actions of someone he sees being creepy/harrassing to a woman: unless that woman asks him to help her.
Gah.. I’m sorry to unloading all this crap on you guys, but unless I pile it on Argenti, there isn’t really anyone else who can understand just what it’s like.
but it’s time limited. The blog owner says he’s capping it at 900 comments, and it’s 850 right now.
and now I think I shall take a strong dose of malarial prevention medicine.
I have to say that, for all the soul-sucking of that thread, it helped me clarify some things about convention culture, and rape cover, and the meme of “socially awkward” .
So not all bad. I think I did some good writing. So not wasted, but a lot less fun than doing it here.
RE: pecunium
Yyyyyup. What you describe is pretty familiar to me. (All those broody geek boys who wanted into our pants apparently were very, very defensive of our rapist, even if they personally disliked him.) Funny, how women are supposed to be entirely responsible for people raping them, but their rapists aren’t expected to be responsible for anything at all.
In other news: WOO BADASS FREDERICK DOUGLAS SPEECH!
<3 that is awful pecunium! hugs if you want them. It's terrible to have to deal with any of those issues individually, let alone all together and without any support like here. I don't mind you venting it here, it's awful to have to sit on that all alone.
Oh… I forgot the best part. The dude who was ‘splainy about how being told, “I have a partner” doesn’t mean she’s not interested, was also arguing what women need to do is 1: make an unequivocal NO, and 2: take the time to explain to the guys who make creepy advances on them why it was wrong, so they would no better in the future.
That’s without his going all Frist on me and saying my level of risk assessment sound like PTSD, he’s not a professional, but that’s what it looks like.
I don’t think he realises how restrained I was.
LBT That was a great speech. I love me some Frederick Douglass. NYC has three statues of him.
You know, this is why I end up here again and again. I like to read other places, and I post from time to time, but for all the disclaimers about this not being a safe space, this is a community that does not tolerate fucknuttery and I love that.
Sittie, I am beyond glad that you are in a good enough place that you are able to let that crap roll off.
pecunium, would a slow loris eating a banana help at all?
“Gah.. I’m sorry to unloading all this crap on you guys, but unless I pile it on Argenti, there isn’t really anyone else who can understand just what it’s like.”
Dude, I’ve spent two days unloading MATH on you, email dump at me!
I don’t think I’ve seen film of lorises before, just pics. They look like an adorable cross between a bear and a monkey. 🙂
LBT: If you are in NYC, we can certainly find space to work on your keyboard.
yeah gillyrosebee, I’m really glad about that too (especially since I spent last week battling with myself about whether it was worth the effort to get out of bed or not). I’m also glad it was me instead of someone who might not be in the same space.
pecunium, fuck that shit. I wish it was good enough that you don’t have to do a risk assessment when you move about in the world, but unfortunately it’s not the reality. I don’t understand why anyone thinks it’s okay to do something to someone else without a “yes”. A lack of a no isn’t the same thing as a yes. I don’t know why that is hard to understand.
Very few spaces are any good at intersectionality, honestly. You don’t have to be far off the assumed norm in any given space to notice the ways in which assumptions are being made and what they mean about who the people who’re speaking think is reading. Example! In lots of feminists spaces that consider themselves kink-friendly I’ve run into the assumption that woman + kinky = submissive, and significant pushback/annoyance/will you just shut up so everyone else can bond any time I try to point out that not all kinky women are subs. There’s a weirdly pervasive patterns where whenever someone says “assumption X is not actually true for everyone here” people get defensive and respond with “how dare you suggest that there’s something wrong with people for whom assumption X is true?”, even when that wasn’t what was said.
Pecunium, holy fuck that guy is an asshole. I’ve read a couple of threads on Popehat (for which I curse you), and he popped up all over the place with the same schtick.
“I didn’t say that. You misunderstand me. Several of you have misunderstood me in the exact same way so you must all be similarly lacking. I would never do that thing that I just did that you are accusing me of.” Tedious, disingenuous, and seems to take a great deal of pleasure in playing vocabulary games with other people’s pain.
Also, he implied (in one of those other threads) that he’s a lawyer, and has been in a great many fist fights, and therefore his opinion on the Zimmerman trial is totally credible (he actually started off sounding reasonable, and then derailed himself because he just can’t bring himself to be wrong or uninformed about anything. Douche!)
Anyway, toward the end there, you write this, which I greatly appreciate:
SittieKitty – probably saying something you already know, but these guys do understand it. They are as capable of reading an indirect or nonverbal “no” as women are. They simply don’t like the answer.
FTR, I prefer working on the floor. Harder to lose screws that way (not that I haven’t lost mine…)
*kicks firefox* stop it, err, do it, err, WORK DAMN YOU
@ pecunium
Is this guy focusing on SF/fantasy fandom? If so, oy, and he’s demonstrating why I spend very little time in that fandom and won’t go to cons despite having read the stuff since I was a kid.