Like a lot of people in the US of A, I am taking a long weekend. Posting may be a little light for a bit. So here’s an open thread for everyone else taking a long weekend. Or not. Use this thread for anything that’s not personal. Like misogyny, politics, kitties, you know the drill. (Though kitties are welcome in all threads, of course.)
I am hoping my long weekend turns out a bit better than that of the people in the Australian movie of that name from 1978, which I keep meaning to see. Apparently their little beach vacation doesn’t go so well, and they are attacked by … nature? At one point, I believe, they face off against an enraged dugong. (No, really.) The movie was recently remade, but apparently the remake wasn’t as good.
Stay tuned for more reviews of movies I haven’t seen and that I’m just giving vague impressions of based on things I’ve heard somewhere.
@Argenti, if you don’t my asking, how many atheists were there? Just curious
@Fibinachi:
“People are not fungible.”
O: I never said they were.”
“Beauty in the discussion of people is a reference to the beauty of those people.”
O: OK.
“Beautiful people are not fungible.”
O: Yes, they are.
“How would you even arrive at that conclusion?”
O: Please revisit my Hollywood quote…?
“In what hellhole of a rationalistic, mechanistic is that a state of affairs that even approaches reality? You have got to be kidding. You are making a joke. You are taking the piss. There is a monk out back with a ladder. There is no way this is possibly something you say and mean and think.”
O: Please curb your morality…
“Add if it was limited in supply how could it be fungible? Fungibility inherently improves supply because any unit can be exchanged for another unit! Beautiful people become fill in the blank blind spot in some auctioneer block if they’re fungible.”
O: Again – anything that is relatively scarce is also relatively more valuable.
“The very idea that sexually desirably people are in short supply means they cannot be merely fungible and simply interchangeable. You cannot tell me you would sleep with a mass murderer as easily as you would a saint if they looked the same. This is not… How… What?”
O: Killers can and do have quite a few lovers. I wouldn’t sleep with them. that’s true, but that’s beside the point.
“Also, stop lying.”
O: About what?
“That study was a study of unsolicited messages received by 10 identical profiles with 10 different pictures.
No more, no less”
O: True.
“And, in that, it even conforms to what you’d think – women receive more unsolicited attention.
That’s all.”
O: Problem is, that OKTrends got very similar ressults with a much larger sample size, and this time all actual profiles of real people. The studies confirm each other.
“In fact, the one message he sent to a beautiful woman that was the most attractive one he could find within three minutes was replied to, because it was thoughtful, fun and interesting. Holy shit, showcasing personality over an online dating service is possible! Unlike what you said earlier!”
O: That’s *one* case, as you pointed out. But can that scale, to say, hundreds of thousands? Or even millions?
“My god man. I know 6 pairs of people who hooked up through the internet. Okay, I admit, none of them are models, but they’re not ugly molochs.”
O: 12 people out of a universe of…?
“I’m out. I can’t.. I can’t deal with this.”
O: OK.
“I know. Fictional character.”
O: ???
“I know what negs are.”
O: I didn’t dispute that you did; I was explaining what they were and that they were greatly abused.
“And if desirable, attractive people of either sex are in short supply, why are they fungible? It’s not actually about the beauty at all? It’s the orgasms?”
O: Actually both, among other things. Anything or anyone, who is in short supply, tends to be more valuable.
“Is it the notch count? this fucking fascinates me. Is there bonus points for orgasms arrived inside beautiful people? Are they worth more than others?
This makes no sense!”
O: Actually, it does have a certain logic to it. Not that I necesarily subscribe to it.
“Then why do you keep bringing up what others do? Why do you keep talking about what you should do when others do bad things? Why do you constantly talk about how feminists should do so and so?”
O: Becaue they – “they” meaning, Feminists (which includes thiss current forum) – talks about it. A lot.
So, I decided to have a dialogue about all of that…
“Stop lying.”
O: Again – what do I have to gain from lying to you or anyone else in thi forum?
Hmm?
O.
People are not fungible, but beautiful people are. Morality should be curbed.
Don’t get bent out of shape, OF, just using what you wrote, it’s your world view. Just get bent, OK?
@Hellkell:
“There’s a vast difference between makeup, heels, and weaves and “lie about who you are fundamentally,” which seems to be what game teaches.”
O: Such as…? Both are potentially maniuplative “tricks”, right? Why is it different for Women?
Please explain?
O.
Ally — 772 atheists, 1000 people checked the general “non-religious // secular box” (the rest are mostly secular humanists)
O: What I am saying is that they have a shot at them, IF they improve themselves and make themselves into interesting people. And since you all are deadset against Game, fine – what other method do you recommend? This far, I haven’t gotten any answers. Perhaps you’ll offer one?
I don’t really believe in the concept of “improving” oneself (it bothers me), and I believe that all people are intrinsically interesting to SOMEONE, but here, some methods I work.
I think it fair to say that I’m a pretty interesting dude, and I am fairly well-liked. People here like me, I have lots of friends offline, a wonderful husband… socially, I must say, I am happy. But that’s a recent development. I used to be miserable and have very few friends, even though I was apparently “normal.” How did I change?
There are a lot of components, but honestly, I feel that boiled down, I learned how to do three things:
1. like myself,
2. communicate feelings clearly
3. express empathy.
If I like myself, I see myself as worthy, so I won’t sabotage my own relationships. If I like myself, I will hopefully trust my instincts, which may warn me of toxic people. If I like myself, I won’t rely so hard on other people to build me up. Whether I get laid or not, whether I have a partner or not, it has no impact on my character, and I can feel good regardless. Relationships are more likely to start and survive if I like myself.
If I clearly communicate (I’m pretty fond of nonviolent communication), I have more likelihood of getting what I want, finding out what other people want, and getting all our needs met, without escalating conflict. Of course, some people, you just can’t communicate with, but if I like myself, I can LEAVE that relationship without needing to cast judgment on myself or someone else.
If I express empathy, care about people, I’m able to meet them halfway, because it moves me to WANT to communicate effectively. I can’t say I like you, but I care about your welfare, because you’re a person. I want you to be happy, and I hope you do get to go to Alaska or do your RV trip one day. Now, I know this will never get me into your pants, but that’s fine. Just by empathizing with you, even on as superficial a level as, “camping is fun,” I feel that my life in enriched.
These things have made my life happier, and as I’ve grown happier and more sure of myself, my relationship with my husband has improved.
Now, obviously, these three things are simple, but difficult as hell, but I don’t want to make this comment any longer. If you’d like to know more about any of these three things, and how to go about them, ask me and I’ll continue.
I went looking for pics of women wearing appliances but alas, Google image search has failed me. I tried vacuums, washing machines, blenders…it’s almost as if appliances are not a thing that women wear.
RE: Argenti
Out of curiosity, what’s the ratio of USA folk to non-USA folk? Also white to non-white? I know the stereotype of feminist/SJ circles are that they’re all white Americans, and I want to see how much Manboobz follows.
OF: most times, women are changing/enhancing their appearance independent of men. Shocking, isn’t it.
I wear makeup, and as you said, I’m married. Am I just trying to deceive my husband, or am I just a hypergamous bitch trying to trade up?
I’ll give you a hint–I do it for me.
You goofballs are trying to trick women into bed by not being yourselves. Well, a shitty, worst possible version of yourself.
I haven’t run ethnicity v country (nor do I want to deal with the FUCKING COUNTRY CODES [seriously, why is Germany DE?!])
But white on the r/mr question was just under 92% (yes we’re statistically more white than should be expected given where the responses came from) and uh…60%~ American. Then UK, Canada, Australia, and Germany, in that order.
And thank you. I fucked up the hovers on that, 2 pts for finding my error!
@Auggzillary:
“Seriously, I get tired of the whole makeup = lies crap. You can choose what you look like, who says that your “natural” appearance is the only correct way to look? Why is any change to it suddenly a sin?”
O: I didn’t say it was a “sin”; I said that it was equally manipulative, because it is based on that which Men in general most desire in Women, which are cues to youth and beauty/health. Very interesting how much all of you (and other Women, to be frank) are so adamant in your denials in this regard; as if ONLY Men can “trick” people into doing thus and so; never Women.
Hmm…
“OF acts like when you date a woman, she’s never ever allowed to wear makeup or push up bras or makeup again. Like the dude is “stuck” with this chick who “lied” about herself.”
O: Actually, in this age of cometic surgery, it is a concern, especially if the guy in question has designs on a long term mate. There was a very interesting story in the news, I think it was last year, of an Asian couple where the Woman had cosmetic surgery prior to meeting her hubbie, and never disclosed this to him; the hubbie, thinking that her beauty would be passed on to their baby, which they had, found out about the cosmetic surgery and was very, very upset about it. Clearly, she had deceived him, and he sought legal damages.
Very interesting case…
“Um, you do realize that a lot of the didn’t know they were killers? And that if their lovers did, their lovers were pretty fucked up too?”
O: Yes.
@Hellkell:
“People are not fungible, but beautiful people are. Morality should be curbed.”
O: You take note well…
“Don’t get bent out of shape, OF, just using what you wrote, it’s your world view. Just get bent, OK?”
O: I’m sorry, I don’t drink…
@Ally S:
“Oh look, it’s the same old “Making your appearance look good is deception” shit again. How fucking predictable can you be?”
O: Quite; please see my response above to Auggzillary…
@Auggzillary:
“What makes you think women only wear makeup to attract?”
O: I didn’t say they did…
“Again, I went over this a few pages ago. Most women do these things to express their gender, and that doesn’t mean they’re trying to attract.”
O: Most Women also do it to attract members of the opposite sex. Why is that fact so unsettling to you?
“Also, you seriously can’t tell if a woman is wearing heels or makeup? And what is wrong with wigs and weaves?”
O: All of them are presenting a misleading indication of the youth, health and beauty of the Woman in question, things that are very important to Men. They deceive the Man into thinking that the Woman is healthier/younger than she actually is. That a Man can tell that a Woman is wearing a weave, or heels or makeup, that he may not have a problem with it or may indeed love it, doesn’t change the fact that she is giving a false impression of who she is, and on that measure is no better than the PUAs you are all excoriating.
Very convincing argument…
@Hellkell:
“Yet another of your many laughable ideas, up there with why crime rates are falling. Have you ever read a feminist in favor of this?”
O: Not yet; but what I have heard, just the other day, wa a guy talking about hearing a radio show discussin the street harassment issue, and that where he lived they were considering passing laws against it.
“I think it’s fucking stupid, you can’t legislate human decency, much as we may wish to. How would this be enforced? So many questions.”
O: Indeed…it promises to be one heck of a social experiment. Besides, sexual harassment laws are on the books, so it’s not like there’s no precedent. Seems like the next logical step…
@Auggzillary:
“OF, again, women aren’t going to get turned off by you asking if they’re ok.”
O: That’ not quite the experience of at least some Men…
“If they’re offended and suddenly say “I’m not going to have sex with you now because you asked me if I liked it”, and she isn’t communicating, then she wasn’t worth having sex with in the first place. Seriously, when a woman freezes up or says no during sex, what are the chances that she’s actually totally enjoying it? Even if there are women like that, it’s better to be safe and NOT RAPE WOMEN just to see if they’re into that.”
O: OK.
“You want every man to have a beautiful woman?”
O: I don’t recall making any such statement.
“That’s not statistically going to happen, unless every woman at every age turns gorgeous and suddenly wants to date the first single man they see.”
O: I don’t disagree…
O.
It’s funny, you can tell it’s him commenting without even scrolling down just because his comments are so long that the sidebar changes dramatically.
Oh damn, answers to lots of people and I lost the lot! Never mind, this one survived the WordPress Monster:
@thebionicmummy: ‘I doubt that. Besides, someone doesn’t have to ask in the exact words “May I insert my penis into your vagina?”’
In the right circumstances (like playing OTT formal in a giggly way) that would be really funny and not a buzzkill at all.
Asked and fucking answered. Improving your health and appearance is not the same as Game. Which is what everyone’s been telling you this whole damn thread, and every single other thread you’ve been in.
Um, yes? I don’t really know what you’re talking about here because I didn’t read the whole thread. I’m assuming that you did it privately and in confidence and in a sensitive straight-forward manner? Like, pulling her aside and being like, “Hey, I appreciate that we’re being set up, but I’m really not interested in you. Sorry.” ??
Actually I’m assuming the opposite because of how everyone else is reacting to it, I actually assume you were an asshole and did it in front of everyone in a mean way.
And changing your health/appearance =/= lying about who you are personality-wise. One is where makeup, wigs, good clothing, ect comes in, the other is where Game comes in.
Germany is DE because the German word for Germany is Deutchland.
Ah, the good old “PUA is just guys learning how to dress better and workout, why do feminists have a problem with it???” tactic. You’re trying to deflect people’s complaints by making PUA sound innocent and harmless. But that argument falls apart. People aren’t complaining about men dressing nicer or working out, they’re complaining about the the blurring of consent, the manipulative power games, the objectification and presentation of sex with women as some conquest to be achieved. They’re complaining about the promotion of the idea that a man’s desire to have sex with a woman is more important than the woman’s time, physical space or desire to be left alone.
If PUA was just fashion and confidence tips, nobody would be complaining about it, but it’s not. It is, at best, repackaged self-help tips wrapped up in a shitload of misogyny, pseudoscience and unhealthy attitudes.
@Auggzillary:
“OF,
You cannot tell when a woman is wearing high heels?”
O: Certainly. What does that have to do with what I’ve said?
“Why would her having a weave or makeup matter anyways? People change appearance.”
O: The reason is why; to let you and the other ladies here tell it, it cannot be because of their desire to attract or retain (in the case of Hellkell) a mate. Nope, nothing to see here, move along…
@Cassandra:
“I went looking for pics of women wearing appliances but alas, Google image search has failed me. I tried vacuums, washing machines, blenders…it’s almost as if appliances are not a thing that women wear.”
O: *rimshot*
@Hellkell:
“OF: most times, women are changing/enhancing their appearance independent of men. Shocking, isn’t it.”
O: Not entirely; in any event, this is inconsistent with EvoPsych…
“I wear makeup, and as you said, I’m married. Am I just trying to deceive my husband, or am I just a hypergamous bitch trying to trade up?”
O: Neither; it could be that you’re trying to retain a mate…
“I’ll give you a hint–I do it for me.”
O: If you say so…
“You goofballs are trying to trick women into bed by not being yourselves. Well, a shitty, worst possible version of yourself.”
O: If I lose weight, get in shape, get a makeover, learn how to talk to/approach Women, develop other aspects of myself, etc et al, am I no longer myself?
@Argenti:
“But white on the r/mr question was just under 92% (yes we’re statistically more white than should be expected given where the responses came from) and uh…60%~ American. Then UK, Canada, Australia, and Germany, in that order.”
O: Thank you for this most interesting and insightful information! Sounds like there’s not much of a difference racially, between you guys and the MRA groups you like to excoriate.
I know, I know, you guys aren’t racists – we’ll see about that, in due course…
O.
If he already fucking knows, and he is okay with that, then he isn’t being deceived. Do you even know what deception is?
False. It’s based on beauty standards, which are exagerated notions of symmetry and often fucked up beyond reason. It’s based on patriarchal notions. Not based on what “most men” are attracted to. Men and women are attracted to a wide variety of things, and beauty standards have a very small narrow focus.
Also, beauty is NOT a commodity, and it’s not a resource, and it’s not a commerce based system. I fundamentally disagree with that notion and that’s something that I think most people here do also. That’s why you’re finding people here disagreeing with you, because most people here think of people interacting with other people as being people, not being a trade. The idea of exchanging beauty for sex/whatever doesn’t enter into most people’s description of relationships and interactions. If you can’t understand that, if you don’t change your view, there’s literally no way that you can come to an agreement with anyone other than trolls on this website and there’s no point in you even trying to talk to us.
Yup, and from a guy young enough to be my son. In the street, no less. I told him “He already does,” and kept walking.
I notice that creepshite doesn’t seem to grasp the idea that different people have different ideals of beauty, either. It’s like beautiful people are a subset that everyone in the world agrees on, and in the women’s case, are selfishly and cruelly withholding themselves from the poor ugly dudes who make up the vast majority of the world’s menz. One would almost suspect that other human beings aren’t actually people at all iln creepshite’s alleged mind. One would even think he’s never heard conversations like “X is so hot!” “Nah, doesn’t do anything for me.” Two people having different tastes, impossible!
Oh the joy of being beautiful to the one person who matters, and is beautiful to me.
@me
“If he already fucking knows, and he is okay with that, then he isn’t being deceived. ”
And, of course, making yourself look good isn’t deception in the first place. It’s simply a way of changing your appearance slightly. It’s not like you jumping into another skin.
Also, I wish puas would drop the tired “game is no worse than women’s beauty advice” bullshit. It’s a false equivalence. The equivalent of women’s beauty advice is men’s beauty advice. The female equivalent of pua would be advice aimed at women designed to trick guys into sexual/romantic relationships (and before some pua shouts “but what about Cosmo!”, plenty of feminists think the dating “advice” in Cosmo is horrible).
@BS:
“Ah, the good old “PUA is just guys learning how to dress better and workout, why do feminists have a problem with it???” tactic. You’re trying to deflect people’s complaints by making PUA sound innocent and harmless. But that argument falls apart. People aren’t complaining about men dressing nicer or working out, they’re complaining about the the blurring of consent, the manipulative power games, the objectification and presentation of sex with women as some conquest to be achieved. They’re complaining about the promotion of the idea that a man’s desire to have sex with a woman is more important than the woman’s time, physical space or desire to be left alone.”
O: And there are remedies for all of that – prosecute. In fact, given the sheer number of PUAs in the States abroad, and given how so many of you seem to be of the view that Game is “rape by any other name” that there hasn’t been a spate of PUAs getting locked up by now. Neil Strauss’ book “The Game” has been out for about eight years now; one has to just wonder why the law hasn’t put PUAs behind bars for raping Women and what not…
And yes, there are quite a few people, Women and Men both, who have problems with certain guys “stepping out of their place” and improving themselves. I’ve seen it firsthand, and have seen it play itself out online too.
“If PUA was just fashion and confidence tips, nobody would be complaining about it, but it’s not. It is, at best, repackaged self-help tips wrapped up in a shitload of misogyny, pseudoscience and unhealthy attitudes.”
O: None of which, was illegal last time I checked…
O.
True and says nothing. Because the big difference is in what we espouse to others, the way we treat racial issues, the understanding we have of race and privilege, and intersectionality. You pointing this out doesn’t really change/prove anything… and if your intention was just to say it out loud, I do believe Argenti beat you to it.
Ah, I see we’ve reached the “you bitches just want to keep the ugly men down!” stage of the conversation. I’m amazed that Eurosabra hasn’t showed up yet. Maybe it’s like PUA Highlander.