Long Weekend Open Thread

@Gilly I’ve also seen “NDN”, but I’m not sure if it’s appropriate for out-group members to use it, so I’ve avoided it. I try to refer to people by their nation when possible (especially when people drop turds like “Native American culture”, singular), or “the indigenous peoples of this continent” if I feel like sounding pretentious, but when I’m talking to the average person “Native American” seems to be the best option.

But seriously. A census term that describes every culture from the Mi’kMaq of Maine to the native Hawaiians is only going to be accurate or useful in a very small range of circumstances.

Oh hey Obsidian, how’s life? I hope you’re well and stuff. I don’t know if you caught it from the last thread, but I think you’re a decent writer and kudos to you for your ability to string sentences together. Even if the subject matter is dark and you seem ( to me ) a little bitter at times.

Did you ever get around to answering why you think feminist regulate male sexuality (and why street harassment is crucial to male sexuality), block men from marrying whoever they like and are against legalized prostitution? If you have the time, I’d love to hear why you think that and where you got that idea from.

Ok OF, I’m going to be way blunt here. If no one wants to date you or have sex with you then you don’t get a date and you don’t get sex. It does not mean you are allowed to harass or manipulate people (game) into doing what they dont want to do just because you feel entitled to your right to dates and sex. I’m sorry neither one of those are rights. Find another legitimate way to meet people (join a fucking club, volunteer, join a goddamn dating site) and hopefully meet someone who likes you. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that these things WILL lead to dates or sex. No one in this world is required to date or have sex with you or anyone else. I’m sorry but if no one wants to have sex with you ever then too damn bad, you don’t get to “make them”. I’m putting that in blunt terms for a reason, to make you get it. As sucky as it would be to never find intimacy or companionship you are still not entitled to it.

But the thing that gets me again and again is the thing about consent, and how asking for consent will totally ruin the mood because SOME WOMEN DON’T LIKE THAT and it totally spoils the mood. Really? There may also be some women out there who like it when their dates surprise them with spontaneous anal sex without asking on the first date, but guess what, this doesn’t absolve men of the necessity of getting consent from women before springing it on their dates.

Silly David! Don’t you know that this girl once smiled at this guy who told her that she had great tits, so that must mean that women actually do want to be heckled on the street, and it is therefore totally worth upsetting all of those people who are offended and disgusted by it because there is a chance, however slender, that Teh Secks will result!

PS – don’t read it, it’s just the same old crap with different misused capitalization.

@Dave:
“Oy, well I don’t have the time or patience to skim more than a portion of OF’s comments here,”

O: That’s hardly surprising and is most unfortunate, because I have addressed what you’re talking about in great detail.

“but the idea that this is some sort of novel discussion is laughable. Virtually every feminist site has had this discussion foisted upon it many times, as has this one, by game-defenders or incels or whoever who DEMAND that feminists tell them how to get hot women into bed, as if this is some sort of basic human right that feminists are somehow responsible for handling for men.”

O: I don’t know about that Dave. The SCOTUS recently made a major ruling involving Gays and Lesbians, and I am inclined to agree with certain pundits on the Left who argue that we straight folk might do well to observe the Gays/Lesbians among us and see what we can learn from them.

At bottom, I think there is a real question here – do we have the Right to Love? That’s what the Loving Decision was all about, and that’s what the DOMA ruling speaks to as well. Why wouldn’t it move in other directions…including this one?

“But the thing that gets me again and again is the thing about consent, and how asking for consent will totally ruin the mood because SOME WOMEN DON’T LIKE THAT and it totally spoils the mood. Really? There may also be some women out there who like it when their dates surprise them with spontaneous anal sex without asking on the first date, but guess what, this doesn’t absolve men of the necessity of getting consent from women before springing it on their dates.”

O: No argument there. But perhaps you can teach me out of your own extensive experience, Dave:

How have you handled these situations? Seriously? I can pass that info on to my readers and the like. It can be of great use to them.

“What I don’t understand is with all these MRAs and PUAs complaining endlessly about the dangers of false accusations, why aren’t they concerned with getting absolutely crystal clear consent before doing anything — if only to protect themselves?”

O: I for one most certainly am; I made this clear when I commented earlier this morning…

“It seems to me the only reason to whinge so much about consent and pretend it’s so hard to figure out is b/c so many PUAs depend on pressuring drunk women into sex in situations where consent is really problematic — Roosh himself has admitted to committing what in the US would be considered rape with a women too drunk to consent.”

O: And the USA authorities can and should apprehend him and prosecute their case. In the meantime, I don’t mess with alcohol in the least and will decline any overtures from a Woman who is drunk…

“If there’s any doubt about consent, err on the side of NOT RAPE. Worst case scenario, you’ll miss out on an opportunity to have sex with a woman who for some reason doesn’t like to be asked for consent. Big damn deal.”

O: OK – but then what? Not all guys have Women falling out of the sky like you do, Dave. And you’ve made it clear that Pickup ain’t the way to go.

So…what should the do?

You were saying…?

O.

“and 2) think that your anecdote is an example of misandry.”

O: I didn’t say that it was. Nice try, though…

They weren’t your exact words, but you still implied that it’s an example of men facing pressure based on attitudes biased against men.

“I love how you 1) universalize one personal anecdote in order to make a claim about society as a whole”

O: What’s good for the Feminist is good for the MRA…

Irrelevant. Moreoever, despite the fact that I’ve seen navel-gazing among feminists, at least I’m far less likely to see them use one experience to make a whole claim about society in general.

“I wonder what those people who called you out would have said if you asked them if it’s okay to not date someone because of a lack of sexual attraction.”

O: See my comment on the matter; they would have tried to foist the young lady in question on me anyway on the basis that “she’s so nice”.

You’re forgetting the fact that 1) she was crying in response and 2) the fact that you said that in front of everyone. So it’s hard to see how your “candor” should have helped you avoid the judgment from people around you. Do you really think it’s unreasonable to speculate that they said those things simply because they wanted to make her feel better?

“Still having trouble seeing why we detest you?”

O: I never had any such “trouble” to begin with; I’m impervious to your or anyone else’s “detestations”…

Let me rephrase that: “Do you still find it difficult to understand why people dislike you [in light of what you said about street harassment]?”

There, now you can’t pick apart my words and dodge what I was saying.

One would have thought that my candor would have been greatly appreciated, especially in light of how much lip service is paid to this on the part of Women especially when it comes to Men and dating situations…go figure…

Ah, yes. The heroic, and sadly misunderstood, moral courage of the asshole. Telling the truth, no matter how painful it is to hear (and even better if you can make it hurt more!).

No, dearie, that wasn’t just candor and you knew it wouldn’t be “appreciated” because if you cared at all about her feelings you would have been explicit and honest with her face to face in a private setting where you could avoid inflicting more than the absolute minimum of pain (acknowledging that being rejected is painful enough).

But no, you are an asshole, so you decided to go for the sociopath of the day gold medal. You intentionally shamed and embarrassed her in front of as many people as you could. Even your friends think you are an asshole, according to your own reporting, because they thought that shaming her in public was uncool.

Just to be clear, women who shame men in public are acting like assholes too. Empathy IS expected to go both ways and all failures in basic human empathy deserve scorn.

@Ally

They weren’t your exact words, but you still implied that it’s an example of men facing pressure based on attitudes biased against men.

Oh, Ally, haven’t you learned by now? OF doesn’t imply anything, and any meaning you read into his words that isn’t literally spelled out by them is an error on your part.

giantsarcasmtag.gif

@Ally S:
“They weren’t your exact words, but you still implied that it’s an example of men facing pressure based on attitudes biased against men.”

O: Yes, you have a penchant for reading what may not in fact be there. Here’s a novel approach, for future reference: just ask me what I meant. 🙂

“Irrelevant.”

O: No, HIGHLY relevant, because a big part of Feminist thought is that the personal, is political. One’s personal narrative, is what is to inform social and public policy questions. Why should it change now that it involves MRAs? Hypocrisy much?

“Moreoever, despite the fact that I’ve seen navel-gazing among feminists, at least I’m far less likely to see them use one experience to make a whole claim about society in general.”

O: ??? Ooookaaaay…

“You’re forgetting the fact that 1) she was crying in response”

O: Oh, I remember it quite well, alright…

“and 2) the fact that you said that in front of everyone.”

O: So? She was also foisted on me in front of everyone too, and repeatedly at that. Nothing done was inconsistent.

“So it’s hard to see how your “candor” should have helped you avoid the judgment from people around you.”

O: Wait – now you’re calling my honesty into question?

“Do you really think it’s unreasonable to speculate that they said those things simply because they wanted to make her feel better?”

O: Let’s reverse the genders for a moment. How many Women have just outright nuked a guy, in the most public of ways? And how many of them have been upbraided by their people for it?

What I learned out of that experience is to get my own Women, and don’t rely on what some refer to as “Social circle Game”. More often than not, your friends – especially the female ones – can NOT pick appropriate mates for you, because their ideas of what constitutes “cute” just is not the business…

“Let me rephrase that: “Do you still find it difficult to understand why people dislike you [in light of what you said about street harassment]?””

O: You are free to rephrase all you like; I simply do not care about why people I don’t know and don’t know me, “dislike” me because I didn’t say something appropraitely poltically correct enough for them. *shrugs again*

“There, now you can’t pick apart my words and dodge what I was saying.”

O: See above…

O.

I think

I have a question:
In light of all you have said above upthread – and I DO think you make a number of legitimate points (i.e., street harassment and romance are NOT the same thing, etc.), and in light of the fact that it is clear that many (perhaps all) of you don’t have a high opinion of Game/Pickup…
…what do you recommend such guys as the one(s) you are discussing do? Where do they go to get themselves together to get dates? Where are the services/providers of services that specifically target and address Men along these lines?
I’m being really serious here. Now, to be sure, Feminists and others – such as yourself, perhaps – may respond, that it’s not your or anyone else’s concern where said guy(s) go; that’s on them to figure out – and I can respect that answer, if indeed that’s where you and others here, may be coming from.
Fair enough.
But, it just seems to me – as we deal with “Nice Guy(TM)” and street harassment questions, and the like, the larger question of a large cohort of guys, who need help in getting dates and lovers. Clearly, many of you do not like the PUA approach – fair enough.
So, what are these guys supposed to do?
Again, I am being sincere here.
Comments? Thoughts?

I may

like, moving in for a kiss. Per the Feminist way of doing things, the guy would have to ask first – and while that certainly makes sense, it also runs the very real risk of killing the attraction on the lady end.
And dude winds up with…nothing.

Have located

But – and there is a but – as a Man, I can tell you, that YES, it can be, and often IS, “that complicated”. Why? Because most Men simply don’t get “enthusiastic” consent like that. To be sure, some guys do, and good on them…but for most regular guys walking around? Nah.
Here again, I have to bring forward what I just posted – it is entirely possible to get such consent from a Woman who thinks you’re a catch, while you think she got caught by something. I know, I’ve been there, and this is why I can relate so much to the guys you’re talking about. Simply put, more attractive Women can afford to “play it cool” – I know that’s not something some here or related spaces may want to hear, but it’s true – and so, again, failing being a really hot guy in some way, the chances of her enthusiastically saying “YES!” are slim to none.
That doesn’t mean she won’t get down with you, but I honestly do think for a lot Women, who have more practice and experience with these kinds of things, reading body language and nonverbal communication and the like, it’s really hard for many of you to see how precious few guys simply don’t get all of that, because we just don’t think or communicate in those ways; and ironically enough, the pickup community discusses things like this quite a bit.
In any event, and responding to your “just ask” comment, I maintain what I said earlier – that for a not insignificant number of Women, such “asking” is a clitoral buzzkill. I’m just saying. And there really aren’t that many Men around who are good with reading body language and nonverbal communication, *of the female kind*, Dvar. I know that may sound utterly alien to you, but I’m telling you from the other side, it’s true.

Something I perceive to be…

BDSM and the like aside – because that’s a very, very niche kind of thing – yes, there are indeed Women out there who will think you’re “off” as a guy if you ask “may I?” at every point in the seduction. For many Women – by no means all, heck, even most, I’ll play along – *its a huge turn on for a Man to “just know”*. Look it up in all the romance novels and the like if you don’t believe me.

The beating monstrosity that is the heart of this understanding…

Well, for one thing, per you and others’ recommendations, the guy is supposed to listen to what she actually said – right? I know I would; it just ain’t worth it for me to try to figure out “what she really meant”.

Obsidian, do you know what consent *is*?
I really don’t mean that as a coy insinuation of anything. The question is sincere – it seems to me as if you’ve… constructed this strange world wherein a man must have form signed in triplicate by three witnesses before even touching someone.
A world wherein hugging someone without express written permission and a strict time limit is a direct offense, worthy of jail time.

… You don’t have to ask “May I?” every time you do anything? You know this. I know this. So my only three conclusions must be – you’re kidding, you don’t know, or I’m reading you wrong.
Also, if it’s a buzzkill for someone to be asked whether or whether not they want to make out until lights start sparkling in their insides, I really – really! – recommend you don’t make out with them. Like, ever. Because they’re not the kind of people willing to communicate what they want out of life, and frankly, I don’t have time to deal with that and neither does anyone else. I hope. For their own good.
“What are these guys supposed to do”? Well, get a hobby. NO, really, get a hobby. Do something with their lives that doesn’t involve an endless chase to get laid, because if they spend 100 % of their time worrying about their dates then they’re very bad dates – they have nothing to think or talk about being an ejaculation inside someone.

Would you date someone desperate?

Talk to people. If A doesn’t work, talk to B. Realize that you’ll face both rejection and mutual attraction. Maybe they should talk to strangers, or wonder if they’re looking for masturbation puppets more than a relationship and if so, whether that’s really a good idea. Basic stuff, recommended by both Gamesters, Gentlemen and most advice columns. Everywhere.
But seriously, is your idea of Feminist Sex Advice a man groveling before a woman, on his knees, weepingly asking “May I?” before kissing her toes? It fits the idea of a Tyrannical Matriarch , but, really now…

O: I’m NOT sexually attracted to her.
“But she’s so nice!”
O: I’m NOT sexually attracted to her.
“She would make a really nice girlfriend for you!”
O: I’m NOT sexually attracted to her.
“That ain’t right!”
O: *Zones out*

… I’m sorry that happened to you, but you realize… This is normal?

People telling you you should date other people is… pretty normal. Someone bursting into tears because of rejection is… pretty normal?

Perhaps this strikes a chord, because only last night, following my summer job of archery practice I had to have this very conversation with someone trying to sneak into my bed.

… You realize… Not… Being attracted to someone.. is okay? And if people give you flak for it… It’s their fault, generally speaking? You had this entire triade going earlier about how no one, you got it! Totally!, deserves sex and how it really is up to the individuals… but did you just back track on that?

Seriously, man. I had someone I work with tell me I was a shell of a man with a character I had and a soul buried beneath all the questions I dodge in casual conversation and how I was probably secretively gay, anyway, but really, why didn’t I let someone into my otherwise bleak and broken heart less than 12 hours ago and… That sucks, but some people just can’t handle rejection.

That’s normal.

That’s not a flipside of anything. And your friends where invested in setting you up, so obviously they’re angry at you now. Remember, they see the tears and the drama. Your lack of emotion is generally not something anyone can work with.

Come on.

Coooomee oooon.

Not NOW, blockquotes monster!

I love it when the trolls go all Hal. So, Dave, what are your opinions on my tl;dr? You didn’t read it, Dave? That’s a shame, Dave.