Like a lot of people in the US of A, I am taking a long weekend. Posting may be a little light for a bit. So here’s an open thread for everyone else taking a long weekend. Or not. Use this thread for anything that’s not personal. Like misogyny, politics, kitties, you know the drill. (Though kitties are welcome in all threads, of course.)
I am hoping my long weekend turns out a bit better than that of the people in the Australian movie of that name from 1978, which I keep meaning to see. Apparently their little beach vacation doesn’t go so well, and they are attacked by … nature? At one point, I believe, they face off against an enraged dugong. (No, really.) The movie was recently remade, but apparently the remake wasn’t as good.
Stay tuned for more reviews of movies I haven’t seen and that I’m just giving vague impressions of based on things I’ve heard somewhere.
GRB: heaven forfend that OF should look anything up himself! Shit, his typing fingers haven’t fallen off typing his glurge, he can do a keyword search.
@OF
I think we can all agree it’s men who suffer the most from the current state of prostitution in the US. *gag*
I literally LOL’d.
And the award for “Understatement Of The Year” goes to…
(Seriously, dude, did you miss where someone linked to one of your interactions on that blog last time you were here, and we all had a good LOL?)
I have a dead serious question, too: why is this our problem?
What makes you think you’re entitled to that? Why do you think you get to bumble in, lay your pet topic on the table, and whine when we don’t respond the way you want? Do you treat everyone that way, or just (people you’re assuming are) women?
LOL, the
lurkersblogmaster supports you in email.It’s almost like gendered stereotypes are bullshit! I feel like there’s a movement trying to address that sort of thing, but I can’t think of the name…
OMFG, I can’t believe how often we have to tell you idiots, you don’t have to say “may I?” or get a notarized contract or whatever straw man you’re trotting out today. If you don’t know how to make sure you have consent without breaking the mood, you need to step up your dirty talk game.
ROMANCE NOVELS ARE FANTASIES, YOU CREEPY, RAPE-EXCUSING SHITSTAIN.
I call bullshit. Obsidian, you are not a utilitarian, you are a poser and an asshole.
Start with Bentham or Mill and either way you get to the wrong place. Harrassing strangers on the street will create massive negative content (well documented by the many hundreds of women and even men who share their stories about being subjected to such treatment) in exchange for the hypothetical potential of one small bit of positive content (a date).
Unless and only if you define positive content (happiness) as getting away with harassing and upsetting people because you are a creep who enjoys making people unhappy.
(Another spoiler, you are a troll so of course that’s what you enjoy)
So, you use terminology relating to philosophical positions you know little about and understand even less = poser.
You have admitted you are perfectly happy to make others miserable for your own edification and enjoyment = asshole.
“It’s almost like gendered stereotypes are bullshit! I feel like there’s a movement trying to address that sort of thing, but I can’t think of the name…”
I know! I know! It’s the MEN’S HUMAN RIGHTS MOVEMENT! Dedicated to eradicating sexism by perpetuating the notion that men are inherently inclined to rape and the notion that women are horrible in pretty much every single way imaginable!
Yeah, that movement.
Off to make brunch! Eggs, sausage, cinnamon toast, and the tears of men who want mommy to make it all better.
But enilygoddess, tell it to the bazillion dollar romance novel industry! Jesus, just because guys like OF can’t separate fantasy from reality… more nice things we can’t have thanks to jagoffs like this.
^emilygoddess. that’ll teach me to type without my glasses on.
@GRB:
“No, human beings are, for the most part, human beings.”
O: No, human beings are indeed cost/benefit calculators and that includes most if not all the people reading this, right now.
““Game” is offensive because it views human beings as simple machines and focuses not on developing authentic human interaction but on finding the magic fuck button and hitting it as often as possible.”
O: Game is a mating strategy, of which there are many; Game is only the most recent. Humanity and everything else that is alive has mating strategies. Many of you here have cats, and you can best believe that they too have mating strategies.
As for your notion about Game being “inauthentic” and the like, actually you’re problem is with EvoPsych, since it is there that we learn about the fact that Deception, for example, is not only seen thoughout the animal kingdom but is also highly prevelant among both human males and females and both use it to varying degrees when it comes to mating. Every time a Woman, for example, gets “done” up to hit the clubs, etc, she is engaging in an act of Deception, because she is giving an impression about her reproductive viability to potential suitors that may be true. In the Black community, this takes the form of false fingernails, “Apple Bottom” jeans, hairweaves, false eyelashes, etc et al.
“What would I offer as advice to someone who wanted to find a life companion? Exactly what I did actually offer to one of my coworkers who went from legitimately creepy (first definition) to happily married and now expecting a kid. Treat women like human beings with interests, personalities, goals and desires and try to meet as many as you can and spend time with them without trying to get in their pants right away. Meet enough and focus on having a good experience in the now without trying to force it toward his intended goal along his pre-established timeline and some of them will end up wanting a second and third interaction. Eventually one of them is going to want to keep it going and build it into a relationship, and there is (spoiler alert) NO MAGIC FORMULA FOR MAKING THAT HAPPEN.”
O: Well, first off, let me congratulate the happy couple and their impeding new edition. Second, please see above – all living things have mating strategies, whether we know of them, like them, or believe (in) them, this is true. Strategies exist because they assist living things solve problems – in this case, the adaptive problems of mating. Both human males and females have their mating strategies as well.
Third, I have never personally been a fan of the “fast seduction” schools of pickup, mainly because of security and STD concerns on my part (there is a such thing as a “crazy girl”, and STDs are a concern in the Black community in a way that it isn’t elsewhere in the American population).
Fourth, and your friend aside – if you will kindly go back to my personal account of the senior prom, you will see that what I said actually aligns with what you’re saying – that, sure, you’re likely to wind up with *someone* eventually – but what if that someone isn’t attractive to you? See, this is a very important question that many people don’t address directly, and I am glad that Mystery did; his book, The Mystery Method, has as its subtitle: How to Get BEAITUFUL Women Into Bed. This is very important.
“He needed lots of support and practice in his search, not to mention pointed feedback and help understanding interpersonal communication because he hadn’t done a lot of it. He sure wasn’t going to get that from the pick up ‘community’ (he tried and it only deepened his despair about his lack of success), but it is the kind of thing that female friends are often able and willing to provide on a constant basis, though not when they feel they are being ‘gamed’ constantly.”
O: I would have to respectfully disagree with you, because I’ve seen it happen firsthand; that your friend had a bad experience, for which I truly am sorry about and for, does not negate the whole of the good that the pickup community has and is doing. As for female friends…well, as you might imagine, I have some pointed views about that as well. Indeed, part of the problem I discussed in my personal life about that young lady who liked me, was due in large part to “female friends” trying to push her off onto me. It’s been my personal experience, and that of the many guys I’ve met in the years since, that more often than not, “female friends” cannot help guys reliably get Women with whom to date and the like, or at least not the Women said guys actually want to be with in any event.
O.
I think OF just admitted that porn movies are an exact representation of the kind of sex he would like. I mean, it’s a multi-billion dollar industry…
This is at least the third time you’ve complained about lack of empathy from women – specifically from women. Why do you think you’re entitled to have women, specifically, soothe your bruised ego?
Of course it works! It reminds women that they are under the constant scrutiny of men, and that men could do violence to them at any moment. It’s actually quite effective at those things.
I notice you failed to address the “having empathy” part…
Men aren’t cable of empathy? That is some grade-A misandry right there.
“the whole of the good that the pickup community has and is doing.”
Please don’t make anyone spit their coffee. It’s the least you can do.
@GRB:
“I call bullshit. Obsidian, you are not a utilitarian, you are a poser and an asshole.”
O: *shrugs*
“Start with Bentham or Mill and either way you get to the wrong place. Harrassing strangers on the street will create massive negative content (well documented by the many hundreds of women and even men who share their stories about being subjected to such treatment) in exchange for the hypothetical potential of one small bit of positive content (a date).”
O: Are you saying that *no one* met on the street via a cold approach on the part of the guy? And, are you saying that said Woman would find such an approach attractive, while another would find it as “harassment”? Even if your notion of a small number of these instances is true, the point is made – what one Woman considers attractive, the other may consider “harassment”. Which is why, again, I am quite eager to see what happens when street harassment is made illegal…
“Unless and only if you define positive content (happiness) as getting away with harassing and upsetting people because you are a creep who enjoys making people unhappy.”
O: I don’t do such things.
“(Another spoiler, you are a troll so of course that’s what you enjoy)”
O: *more shrugging*
“So, you use terminology relating to philosophical positions you know little about and understand even less = poser.”
O: Wait, I have to hold a PhD in philosophy before I’m allowed to say that I take a more utilitarian position on life? Really?
“You have admitted you are perfectly happy to make others miserable for your own edification and enjoyment = asshole.”
O: Yawn. Curb your #Outrage, please…
O.
I’m not reading this whole comment thread, ‘cos it’s long. Just wanted to relate that the wedding was lovely. My first cousin once removed, who is about a year away from earning her PhD in Epidemiology so that she can work in the public health field, was absolutely lovely. She’s always been cool, but has matured into a truly impressive person. Her husband is … comfortable but not wealthy.
The best part? She’s 5’10”. He’s 5’8″. And they’re adorable together.
I see O’s here. That makes me really not want to read the whole comment thread. 😀
Ah, yes the good that the PUA community is doing… I know I always enjoy seeing their food and clothing clothing drives at Christmas time. And their constant fundraising for those in need, mostly men, but that’s OK at least they’re…
Oh wait. I meant the constant harassment and rape apologia.
Re: “Native American stuff”
1/8 Northern Cheyenne here, Granddad lived on the rez, Dad was an activist currently enjoying the hospitality of the
occupying armyU.S. federal government. Me, I can still speak some of the language and I won’t make an idiot of myself when attending a ceremony, but I’ve been away from it for a long while now, so take that for what it gives you.Lots of folk on or recently off the rez find the term “Native American” condescending and insulting. “Indian” gets used more often (I have no explanation, really, other than long usage) but almost as bad. It’s like referring to a French or German or Spanish person as a European. Correct as far as it goes but it betrays a kind of willful ignorance, especially about national identity and pride, and a whole lot of white privilege.
In the southwest you will find a lot of Navajo, Apache and Arapaho, Colorado will offer Commanche (seriously, their pottery itself is worth a look and if you can, the cave art is way more beautiful IMHO than the Lascaux paintings!!), Montana more Cree and Cheyenne, etc., etc., etc.
All that said, most of the folk I know are more concerned with justice before the law, maintaining the History, and making a living and don’t sweat the cosmetic stuff. My Granddad’s family owned a shop where he was happy as all get out to sell dreamcatchers and beaded outfits for Barbie dolls and he didn’t care what the tourist guidebook said so long as you paid your $10 for the color version (he paid the printer almost the same but could charge twice as much as for the black and white version) and actually bought some of those pots instead of just taking pictures of them!
OF truly doesn’t care if he’s a shit human. Amazing.
@EG:
“I think OF just admitted that porn movies are an exact representation of the kind of sex he would like. I mean, it’s a multi-billion dollar industry…”
O: I have?
“This is at least the third time you’ve complained about lack of empathy from women – specifically from women. Why do you think you’re entitled to have women”
O: I don’t; I am merely making the point that often in these kinds of discussions the “empathy” is only allowed to flow in one direction, period.
“Of course it works! It reminds women that they are under the constant scrutiny of men, and that men could do violence to them at any moment. It’s actually quite effective at those things.”
O: I must beg to differ; street harassment is clearly a mating strategy, albeit a woefully inaccurate one for the most part.
“I notice you failed to address the “having empathy” part…”
O: That’s because it wasn’t part of what I wanted to say…
“Men aren’t cable of empathy? That is some grade-A misandry right there.”
O: No, that’s not what I said. What I said was that you’re more likely to more effective with guys by showing them cost/benefit analyses for doing/not doing thus and so. Again, see: the current massive drops in violent crime. Part of that is because of the strong deterrents in place for offending. Pleading to guys not to commit murder will not work.
O.
Hahaha, “cold approach.” Nice job trying to trivialize street harassment.
And the difference between harassment and non-harassment is that harassment is non-consensual. Not that hard to understand. It has nothing to do with subjective preferences.
You’re the one making that assumption, not the person you responded to. All that was implied is that you don’t fully understand and know about that philosophical position.
Nope.
No, but you keep using that word and it does not mean what you think it means. What you are talking about is not really a “utilitarian” approach, it’s just selfish and self justifying (more pop Randian if anything). But you want it to sound better than that so you use the term “utilitarian” (incorrectly) to be pretentious and to distract from the fact that you are an asshole.
That you think I am outraged by this is funny, actually. You aren’t that interesting or even that surprising. You are just one in a long, pathetic and boring line of trolls.
“Clearly”, get it? Your silly little girl brain may be too full of makeup tips to understand it, so let me mansplain it for you!
@Auggzillary:
“Maybe women like the way they look?”
O: Indeed; hard to see how or why they would put themselves through all of that if they didn’t like they look…but this doesn’t address my point…
“What about tomboys?”
O: What about them?
“Or lesbians?”
O: Again, what about them?
“Or women who doll themselves up when they’re not looking for a date?”
O: EvoPsych would hold that they are displaying their wares on the open mating market…
“Or trans* people?”
O: Don’t know enough about them to say…
“Or dudes that don’t give a shit about that stuff?”
O: All living things have mating strategies.
“Or people like me who just like looking good, and already have a boyfriend?”
O: Being already mated does not mean that seeking out additonal mating opportunities stops…
“Also, holy shit that’s racist. I didn’t realize only black people got fake nails, hair extensions, showed off their asses, and wore fake eye lashes.”
O: They aren’t; I was merely relating the topic to my particular cultural experience.
“BEAITUFUL.”
O: Ooops, made a typo, that’s what I get for typing while sitting outside…
@Hellkell:
“OF truly doesn’t care if he’s a shit human. Amazing.”
O: I’m not easily swayed by shaming tactics. They don’t work, especially coming from people who don’t know or care about me.
“Ah, yes the good that the PUA community is doing… I know I always enjoy seeing their food and clothing clothing drives at Christmas time.”
O: Perhaps they could set up a table right next to the Jezebel/Feminist/Feministing/Pandagon/Manboobz one?
“And their constant fundraising for those in need, mostly men, but that’s OK at least they’re…”
O: Again, they can ally their fundraising efforts right alongside Manboobz fundraising efforts to stop all the bloodletting violence there in Chi-town – oh, wait…
“Oh wait. I meant the constant harassment and rape apologia.”
O: PUAs aren’t your problem, and this is easily born out by prison incarceration rates. Rapists locked up in the joint aren’t former PUAs.
@GRB:
““Clearly”, get it? Your silly little girl brain may be too full of makeup tips to understand it, so let me mansplain it for you!”
O: Well, I wouldn’t put it quite that way, but if you insist…
A bit less florid next time, hmm?
“No, but you keep using that word and it does not mean what you think it means. What you are talking about is not really a “utilitarian” approach, it’s just selfish and self justifying (more pop Randian if anything). But you want it to sound better than that so you use the term “utilitarian” (incorrectly) to be pretentious and to distract from the fact that you are an asshole.”
O: Whatevs. I’m the least of your problems if you’re about stopping street harassment. I don’t do it, and never have. Instead of upbraiding me because I won’t parrot the platitudes you want to hear, you need to actually be about getting something done along these lines.
“That you think I am outraged by this is funny, actually. You aren’t that interesting or even that surprising. You are just one in a long, pathetic and boring line of trolls.”
O: Which explains why you’re still here conversing with me – riiight…
O.
@auggziliary Yeah, it’s a crap shoot sometimes. It may not have been clear, so let me be explicit about the fact that I was not calling you out, just offering more complexity! Some folk are gonna get huffy and offended (and who am I to tell them not to, really, as I can’t speak from their experience) others will calmly correct you to what they prefer, still others will shrug and let it roll off unless asked about it directly (me, pretty much). Some of us even aggressively call out those in the tribe who do the getting all huffy about it thing because it really doesn’t help anything.
Your way of handling it is pretty much what I’d do, mostly because it has the benefit of also being as close as we can get to the right thing to do these days. “Native American” is the most basically correct term to use (loosely) for the Nations as a whole (like European when referring to France, Germany and Spain at the same time). Use the Nation or tribe when you know it and be as gracious as possible when you end up with an activist and start getting lectured (I promise you that though solidarity is shown when facing the world, tribal folk call each other on that crap constantly in private).
@Ally S:
“Hahaha, “cold approach.” Nice job trying to trivialize street harassment.”
O: I’m not; merely describing what it is. And it is a cold approach, ie, approaching a Woman previously unknown to you.
“And the difference between harassment and non-harassment is that harassment is non-consensual. Not that hard to understand. It has nothing to do with subjective preferences.”
O: No, the difference between the two is one is wanted and the other is not. Just like sexual harassment at work. If the Women in question likes you, you may approach and put your thing down, at work, on the street or anywhere else. The opposite is true if she does not like you.
All of which brings up some interesting questions – if/when laws against street harassment go down, what will that mean for Men and Women meeting each other while out and about? Will it go down, go up, or remain the same? I don’t know if any studies have been done along these lines as it relates to sexual harassment on the job; for my part, I just don’t bother with any of it due to too much risk of incurring legal and punitive costs.
“You’re the one making that assumption, not the person you responded to. All that was implied is that you don’t fully understand and know about that philosophical position.”
O: That’s a fair point; but it’s also a fair point to note that my interlocutor attempted to foist something on me I never intended; I am simply saying that I do things based on a simple cost/benefit calculus. That may be deplorable to her, you and perhaps everyone here, but the simple truth is that people can and will do things out of naked self interest more often than not. I don’t dislike Abe Lincoln because he didn’t necessarily had a great love for Black folks and had more the idea of holding the Union together in mind. Eithe way, Black people were set free as a result, and that’s what works for me in the end.
“Nope.”
O: *shrugs* #Outrage is so overrated…
O.
I’m not conversing with you, I’m making fun of you. It amuses me to do so and when I am done, I will stop. If you leave before I am done, I will do so to the next troll. You are interchangeable, really. You may think you are a special little snowflake, but you are more accurately just an ice cube, same as every other creepy pick up idiot cranked out by that regressive mold.
And I should justify my level of activism to you, why exactly?
The difference is that most of the folk who identify themselves as feminists actually do engage in activism. Granted, we all have our own particular issues to focus primarily on, but we are also more likely to support each other when called on to do so because as a community we are interested in furthering the cause of equality before society and the law. Manboobz may not have a “table” somewhere collecting money for your own pet project but I’ll bet that more of us have been engaged in real activism (bathering on and on about “game” is not activism, BTW) in the last year than you have in your life.