Long Weekend Open Thread

in other words, they don’t work’

Percentage of current relationships that began online: 20% http://www.statisticbrain.com/online-dating-statistics/

I’d wager that’s a hell of a lot better than relationships that began with street harassment.

Also, how in the fuck is it even possible for a dating service to work for women, but not for men? If a het woman gets her desired outcome, then that means a het man is also getting HIS desired outcome. Men and women are on the same damn team.

@HellKell:
“Uh, OF. Your nasty little slip is showing again.”

O: No, it’s not; there was no “slip” involved. I knew exactly what I was saying.

Street harassment, as a mating strategy (they call it “Hollaback Game” out on the streets of the inner ciy) for the most part, doesn’t work. That alone, is reason enough to refrain from doing it.

Now, I know the yearbook answer is to give all the empathetic reasons and whatnot, but I like to do things along cost/benefit lines. Because, human beings are for the most part, cost/benefit calculators. And when you get right down to it, one of the main arguments to use to tamp down on street harassment, to guys, is that it doesn’t work. You are NOT likely to win guys over with violins and sob stories; you are much more likely to win them over with stuff that does or does not work.

Make of that what you will…

“OF: it’s not hard for me to grok, but let’s face it, you are not exactly honest.”

O: Really? How so?

O.

so his doing “dishwashing penance” is appropriate…

Look down, look down
Don’t squeeze too hard with Dawn
Look down, look down
It’s this or mow the lawn

At this point I’m fairly certain it’s more than clear that he’s going to be all DOESN’T WORK GOTTA USE GAME no matter what solutions we propose.

@gillyrosebee: I’ve got plenty of photos of the wee ones, I’ll upload a few more later on.

@Auggziliary

Emilygoddess, I mean like museums and parks that have info and artifacts on the Native Americans that were there, and their history. I guess that’s touristy, but I always like them. Well kind of, they’re really sad, so I like them for being informative.
Also I was assuming LBT was not American and didn’t know about Native American cultures.
Sorry if that came across weird.

I’m not trying to be a jerk here. And also, I should probably point out that I’m not Native American. It’s just that people have this tendency to talk about Native Americans in terms of their artifacts and their history in a way that treats them like historical curiosities, rather than as living peoples still suffering from the effects of colonization and racism. Depending on where in the Midwest you are, the people whose history you’re learning about may still be around.

If I seem defensive, it’s because there are people who do shit like drive onto reservations to gawk, or complain that the Native Americans they meet wearing jeans and tee-shirts aren’t “real Indians”, or treat sacred ceremonies as entertainment, or would rather buy a dreamcatcher at a tourist trap than even go to a museum like the ones you mentioned. I assumed you didn’t mean any of those things when you said “Native American stuff”, but it still sounded weird.

OF: it’s not hard for me to grok, but let’s face it, you are not exactly honest.”

O: Really? How so?

Because unlike you, I can read and understand what’s written. You do know we can scroll up, or are you a goldfish with no memory every time you post?

And it seems you didn’t prove your point on what I said about porn. The dissapproval of women sure as hell isn’t stopping that particular train, so I guess you’re wrong again. A rather permanent state of being for you that must get old.

Because, human beings are for the most part, cost/benefit calculators.

No, human beings are, for the most part, human beings. “Game” is offensive because it views human beings as simple machines and focuses not on developing authentic human interaction but on finding the magic fuck button and hitting it as often as possible.

What would I offer as advice to someone who wanted to find a life companion? Exactly what I did actually offer to one of my coworkers who went from legitimately creepy (first definition) to happily married and now expecting a kid. Treat women like human beings with interests, personalities, goals and desires and try to meet as many as you can and spend time with them without trying to get in their pants right away. Meet enough and focus on having a good experience in the now without trying to force it toward his intended goal along his pre-established timeline and some of them will end up wanting a second and third interaction. Eventually one of them is going to want to keep it going and build it into a relationship, and there is (spoiler alert) NO MAGIC FORMULA FOR MAKING THAT HAPPEN.

He needed lots of support and practice in his search, not to mention pointed feedback and help understanding interpersonal communication because he hadn’t done a lot of it. He sure wasn’t going to get that from the pick up ‘community’ (he tried and it only deepened his despair about his lack of success), but it is the kind of thing that female friends are often able and willing to provide on a constant basis, though not when they feel they are being ‘gamed’ constantly.

@GRB:
“See, I was going to try to read some of that wall and respond to it, but I stopped dead on this one.”

O: That doesn’t surprise me…

“So the end justifies the means? If one person ends up not being disgusted and offended and upset by it, and what? talks to you or agrees to go have a coffee, that justifies being disgusting and offensive to all the rest and upsetting them?”

O: Not necessarily. But the truth of the matter is, that there *are* SOME Women who respond favorably to being approached on the street cold, and that approach to one Woman, could very well be “harassment” to another – hence why I am very interested in seeing what happens when street harassment is officially outlawed, because I’m interested to see how the cases are going to be hashed out in court…

“You clearly didn’t bother to read the thread on the discussion about that definition of creepy, because you would have noticed that we got to a place where we were pretty nuanced and empathetic about the lesser ‘unwittingly’ creepy (deserving of empathy and some gentle reeducation) versus the more problematic ‘couldn’t give a damn if it does make people uncomfortable or actually gets off on it’ variety (deserving of a big fuck off).”

O: Admittedly, I missed that discussion. Could you please post up the link? I’d very much like to read it…

In the meantime, let me ask you, please: which “half” of these guys is the bigger one – the clueless ones, or the douchey ones? Just curious.

““Harassing people is wrong because it doesn’t get them into bed with you” is part of that second variety of creepy because it demonstrates that you don’t give a fuck about anyone but yourself, and about others as means to pleasing yourself.”

O: I know, and from your point of view as a Woman, it is completely understandable that you would feel that way. Such a view is abhorrent to many Women for the same reason – because it is a “tell” that the Man in question is likely not to ne understanding of her needs and may lack empathy and so forth. Trust me, I get it.

“Harassing people is wrong because it is wrong. If you don’t get that, why should anyone here care about anything else you spew out?”

O: They shouldn’t. But that doesn’t mean that the issues they address aren’t valid.

Crimes like murder is “wrong” but unless and until there were strong deterrents against it put into place, it merely being “wrong” didn’t stop offenders from offending. The cost of doing so, i.e., being locked and possibly even being executed, is what brings down murder rates (here in Philly, where I live and am from, the murder rate is at its lowest point in some 45 years – we just recently built a new prison 🙂 )…

One should learn to curb their “morality”, because often, more often than not, it often gets them into trouble. Adopting a bit more of a utilitarian approach to life actually solves more problems.

O.

@Obnoxious

just how many swear words can you spew out of that hole in your head that passes for a mouth?

Quite a few, because they’re rather appropriate in this context.

I actually think street harassment is wrong, largely because it doesn’t work.

Still having trouble seeing why we detest you?

You see, this is the flipside of these kinds of discussions that rarely if ever sees the light of day – Men aren’t expected to have their own ideas and standards of what they find sexually attractive, AND to decline any alternate offers if he thinks they are subpar. If he does this, he “ain’t right”, “mean”, “selfish”, “superficial”, and if you’re Black, you’re full of “self hate”, “colorstruck” and so forth. No, it couldn’t just be, that you simply aren’t into the Woman in question due to her not being sexually attractive to you as a Man; you MUST accept her overtures, because if you don’t you’re “mean”.

I love how you 1) universalize one personal anecdote in order to make a claim about society as a whole and 2) think that your anecdote is an example of misandry. You have every right to not be with someone for whatever reason (including lack of sexual attraction), but you really shouldn’t expect anything but disdain for bluntly saying that to someone in front of so many people. I wonder what those people who called you out would have said if you asked them if it’s okay to not date someone because of a lack of sexual attraction.

here in Philly, where I live and am from, the murder rate is at its lowest point in some 45 years – we just recently built a new prison

Crime’s been going down in the States since 1990.

I know, and from your point of view as a Woman, it is completely understandable that you would feel that way. Such a view is abhorrent to many Women for the same reason – because it is a “tell” that the Man in question is likely not to ne understanding of her needs and may lack empathy and so forth. Trust me, I get it.

Yeah, you get it and you hate it. How dare the bitches want decent treatment?