>>>The other thing to remember about “real” poly relationships that the openness is all about negotiating times, places, people and commitments and I get the impression your friend would really not be comfortable with discussing her friend’s intentions to sleep with someone else.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “negotiating times, places, people and commitments”. It seems like an overrestrictive arrangement that does qualify as poly but does not define all or the majority of poly relationships. Some are way more hands-off, to the point of “I explicitly don’t want to hear about your other relationships” being the primary operative constraint. In others it’s more of an “I don’t care either way if you talk about your other partners or not”.
I’ll be honest, my definition of poly is poly-*amory*. You can have an open relationship that is not poly, in that you are only having a loving relationship with one partner but have sexual encounters outside that relationship. To me, polyamory implies some sort of emotional attachment to multiple partners (at the very least a close friendship with benefits), and I’m really not sure that’s what the prospective boyfriend of BigMomma’s friend is asking for.
CassandraSays
11 years ago
Yeah, it really seems like “please define your terms” should be step one here.
LBT – way to go! Let ’em read it and do a slow burn.
CassandraSays
11 years ago
Also, given that this is a man requesting an open relationship from a woman who I guess he knows doesn’t have any experience with that, I’d want to check that he really means open for both parties and not just “you stay faithful to me, I get to sleep with whoever I want”.
Is anyone else finding WordPress is bouncing back to the previous page of comments after posting one? As in, the page before the page one was reading and replying to?
Hmmm. Well, speaking for myself, I’d really like to see class issues addressed more in general. A lot of the queer/trans shit I read comes from a VERY middle-class perspective; these are folks who went to college, read their literature, and know about the statistics of homelessness and such among queers and trans folk, but don’t actually have it in their own lives.
Also, just the way shit can stack. Being homeless was pretty bad… but mental illness compounded it, because it meant I couldn’t get a job and had no hope of pulling myself out of the homelessness hole, until disability came in. (And I knew the moment I started that it’d be at least a year. A year can be a long, LONG time when you’re living in a closet filled with rotten fiberglass and rusty nails.) Being trans stacked with being mentally ill, in that our parents thought that it was just a symptom of us being crazy, rather than a different thing in its own right. And so on and so forth.
Thanks for the suggestions! I think you’re right about class issues not being addressed often enough. In fact, I’ve made that mistake myself – I guess that’s because sexism and cissexism affect me in ways that I’m much more conscious of than anything else, including my own privileges (I’ve always been a little bit lower than middle class, which is still privileged of course). That also explains why I write about those two axes of oppression almost exclusively.
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago
First question for herself should be more like if she can actually handle the idea of him sleeping with other people or is going to be jealous // etc, because it’s perfectly reasonable if she can’t // doesn’t want to.
First question for him should indeed be terms and conditions (mine are usually “don’t tell me details and CONDOMS” [who’s surprised that I insist on condoms? Bueller?]). And whether she can, if she so chooses, have other partners.
Other considerations — the STD risk goes way up the more people involved, so they have to be clear that anyone’s partner tests positive for anything then everyone gets tested (and treated) before further sexytimes commence.
Oh, WordPress does that with all comments when the ‘most recent’ comments bar goes over a couple pages–you know, Ally posts the last comment on page 2, CassandraSays comments next and becomes the first on page 3, and so on. Apparently WordPress isn’t sophisticated enough to be able to keep track of that smoothly, but once the ‘most recent’ comments bar has them all on the same page, the problem stops, and since Manboobz moves so quick, it generally doesn’t last long.
RE: Ally
It’s very annoying! The only time I see class really talked about much in the circles I run in are with the disabled folk–and that’s because a lot of them are living on SSI and such and have practically nothing. And even then, there’s a difference between being disabled and coming from a poor family. I might be destitute now, but I came from a middle-class childhood, which gave me access and a strong platform for things that someone coming from a poor childhood wouldn’t have. It’s rather complex.
Plus I just find the classism endemic to a lot of tumblr-style activist talk to be really, really annoying. (Looking at YOU, “educate yourself” meme!)
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago
Seriously, you’d think after being asked the same annoying “educate me!” quesiton enough times you’d just bookmark a “go here and read this” link(s).
Depends. I actually DREAD the people who are too afraid to ask me for multi references, because it means they’ll end up with a kludge of DID/False Memory Syndrome shit. Like, sure, I made my comics and site so I could just link or hand them over… but I’d still rather do just that, rather than send strangers Googling on their own. It’s one thing for shit like gayness, where there’s crap all over the Internet, but there isn’t really much multi shit I feel comfy recommending that I didn’t make myself, and ALL of it is hard to find if you don’t know the language already. I feel that refusing to share those links and forcing some poor time-starved sot to search for everything themselves using language they don’t know would just be douchey.
Seriously, send me a hundred poor ignorants asking me the same stupid questions than one irritating know-it-all who took a couple Psych courses in college and think they know more about multi than me. (“Ohoho, I see you say you’re multi, but you said you became multi at the age of twelve, when Kluft SPECIFICALLY says that you can’t become multi after the age of seven! OHOHO WHAT NOW FAKER???”)
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago
I think you may’ve misunderstood, or I misspoke, as my point was exactly what you are saying — at least hand out decent links. Because yeah, the internet can be a vast scary place!
Ohhhh, I see. Sorry, I was obviously out to lunch. (To be fair, Sneak and Gigs dragged me off to a Let’s Play of some horror game, and it was Showdown Time when I was making the comment.)
Yeah, I’m also pretty biased because my first exposure to real-life trans people (as opposed to random bit characters in fiction) was a drag king convention in my home city. I went, hoping to learn something (this was a few months before we realized we existed) and it turned out that everyone was from out-of-town, had already made their own friends, and were talking about high-level gender discourse shit that sure, I know it now six years later, but totally left me in the dust as a wee thing. And I didn’t dare ask because the one time I stopped discussion for any question (“what’s a grill?”) everyone just stared at me like I’d shat in the punchbowl.
Needless to say, I didn’t feel like I was at home there. I felt like some socially stunted Martian anthropologist, at best. It definitely wasn’t the kind of place that made me feel, “Gee, I sure would like to come back!” even now that I have the appropriate jargon in my back pocket.
Yeah, there’s a big difference between telling trolls to go jump ‘cos this isn’t a 101 space, but people actually wanting to learn AFK about stuff that affects them, and being given the condescending shit? Not cool.
Argenti Aertheri
11 years ago
Hell, even the trolls tend to get directed to feminism 101
I wonder if it’d be a good idea to ask Dave to put a Feminism 101 link in the sidebar? It’d be cool to be able to point people asking in good faith, or JAQers-off, to it. Sort of “This isn’t a feminism 101 site, but these are!”
Needless to say, I didn’t feel like I was at home there. I felt like some socially stunted Martian anthropologist, at best. It definitely wasn’t the kind of place that made me feel, “Gee, I sure would like to come back!” even now that I have the appropriate jargon in my back pocket.
It kills me that even spaces where marginalized people gather themselves have practices that marginalize others. I guess it’s sort of how we learn to do it. I was part of an organization that was majority white and consciously trying to transition into a majority POC space (because that reflected the base we represented). A shit ton of the more important things we did were less about having the correct theoretical position, and more about making people feel welcome, letting them know how to get things done, and answering their questions without making them feel stupid.
Back to the poly question: “And whether she can, if she so chooses, have other partners.”
THIS. If he wants other partners for himself but balks at her doing the same, HUGE red flag. That’s not poly, that’s good old double standards.
lightcastle
11 years ago
Kittehserf brings up an important point. “Rules for thee, but not for me” is almost always a bad sign.
I personally get irritated with describing all non-monogamous relationships as “poly” in shorthand, but it seems to have stuck. As has been said, they come in all shapes and sizes and styles, and figuring out what works for her is pretty much the only way it works. I pretty much second what tenya said. About the only thing I would add extra weight to is that she really should be fine with being not fine with things. Questioning her preconceptions to try something new and see if she’s ok with it is fine. But if she’s not, then she’s not, and that’s what’s right for her. Don’t let people start Poly Douchebag Maneuver Alpha and start up with how she’s “closed minded” or “prudish” or “still thinks of people as possessions” or “not transcended her jealousy yet”. Anyone who starts with any of that should be kicked to the curb post-haste.
We Hunted The Mammoth
>>>The other thing to remember about “real” poly relationships that the openness is all about negotiating times, places, people and commitments and I get the impression your friend would really not be comfortable with discussing her friend’s intentions to sleep with someone else.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “negotiating times, places, people and commitments”. It seems like an overrestrictive arrangement that does qualify as poly but does not define all or the majority of poly relationships. Some are way more hands-off, to the point of “I explicitly don’t want to hear about your other relationships” being the primary operative constraint. In others it’s more of an “I don’t care either way if you talk about your other partners or not”.
I’ll be honest, my definition of poly is poly-*amory*. You can have an open relationship that is not poly, in that you are only having a loving relationship with one partner but have sexual encounters outside that relationship. To me, polyamory implies some sort of emotional attachment to multiple partners (at the very least a close friendship with benefits), and I’m really not sure that’s what the prospective boyfriend of BigMomma’s friend is asking for.
Yeah, it really seems like “please define your terms” should be step one here.
LBT – way to go! Let ’em read it and do a slow burn.
Also, given that this is a man requesting an open relationship from a woman who I guess he knows doesn’t have any experience with that, I’d want to check that he really means open for both parties and not just “you stay faithful to me, I get to sleep with whoever I want”.
Didn’t BigMomma say her friend was thinking about poly after breaking up from her twelve-year relationship?
My two cents: it seems maybe a bad place to come from to start that sort of radical change.
I thought it was the prospective partner who was suggesting it?
You’re right, I read again and see I’d misunderstood it. I’d thought Friend was open to the idea before meeting Guy.
Is anyone else finding WordPress is bouncing back to the previous page of comments after posting one? As in, the page before the page one was reading and replying to?
I’m noticing that sometimes, and it’s annoying. X_X
Even weirder, it’s doing it on this thread but not others. Flips back to the top of the previous page. Stupid WordPress.
@LBT
Thanks for the suggestions! I think you’re right about class issues not being addressed often enough. In fact, I’ve made that mistake myself – I guess that’s because sexism and cissexism affect me in ways that I’m much more conscious of than anything else, including my own privileges (I’ve always been a little bit lower than middle class, which is still privileged of course). That also explains why I write about those two axes of oppression almost exclusively.
First question for herself should be more like if she can actually handle the idea of him sleeping with other people or is going to be jealous // etc, because it’s perfectly reasonable if she can’t // doesn’t want to.
First question for him should indeed be terms and conditions (mine are usually “don’t tell me details and CONDOMS” [who’s surprised that I insist on condoms? Bueller?]). And whether she can, if she so chooses, have other partners.
Other considerations — the STD risk goes way up the more people involved, so they have to be clear that anyone’s partner tests positive for anything then everyone gets tested (and treated) before further sexytimes commence.
RE: comment scan back
Oh, WordPress does that with all comments when the ‘most recent’ comments bar goes over a couple pages–you know, Ally posts the last comment on page 2, CassandraSays comments next and becomes the first on page 3, and so on. Apparently WordPress isn’t sophisticated enough to be able to keep track of that smoothly, but once the ‘most recent’ comments bar has them all on the same page, the problem stops, and since Manboobz moves so quick, it generally doesn’t last long.
RE: Ally
It’s very annoying! The only time I see class really talked about much in the circles I run in are with the disabled folk–and that’s because a lot of them are living on SSI and such and have practically nothing. And even then, there’s a difference between being disabled and coming from a poor family. I might be destitute now, but I came from a middle-class childhood, which gave me access and a strong platform for things that someone coming from a poor childhood wouldn’t have. It’s rather complex.
Plus I just find the classism endemic to a lot of tumblr-style activist talk to be really, really annoying. (Looking at YOU, “educate yourself” meme!)
Seriously, you’d think after being asked the same annoying “educate me!” quesiton enough times you’d just bookmark a “go here and read this” link(s).
RE: Argenti
Depends. I actually DREAD the people who are too afraid to ask me for multi references, because it means they’ll end up with a kludge of DID/False Memory Syndrome shit. Like, sure, I made my comics and site so I could just link or hand them over… but I’d still rather do just that, rather than send strangers Googling on their own. It’s one thing for shit like gayness, where there’s crap all over the Internet, but there isn’t really much multi shit I feel comfy recommending that I didn’t make myself, and ALL of it is hard to find if you don’t know the language already. I feel that refusing to share those links and forcing some poor time-starved sot to search for everything themselves using language they don’t know would just be douchey.
Seriously, send me a hundred poor ignorants asking me the same stupid questions than one irritating know-it-all who took a couple Psych courses in college and think they know more about multi than me. (“Ohoho, I see you say you’re multi, but you said you became multi at the age of twelve, when Kluft SPECIFICALLY says that you can’t become multi after the age of seven! OHOHO WHAT NOW FAKER???”)
I think you may’ve misunderstood, or I misspoke, as my point was exactly what you are saying — at least hand out decent links. Because yeah, the internet can be a vast scary place!
Ohhhh, I see. Sorry, I was obviously out to lunch. (To be fair, Sneak and Gigs dragged me off to a Let’s Play of some horror game, and it was Showdown Time when I was making the comment.)
Yeah, I’m also pretty biased because my first exposure to real-life trans people (as opposed to random bit characters in fiction) was a drag king convention in my home city. I went, hoping to learn something (this was a few months before we realized we existed) and it turned out that everyone was from out-of-town, had already made their own friends, and were talking about high-level gender discourse shit that sure, I know it now six years later, but totally left me in the dust as a wee thing. And I didn’t dare ask because the one time I stopped discussion for any question (“what’s a grill?”) everyone just stared at me like I’d shat in the punchbowl.
Needless to say, I didn’t feel like I was at home there. I felt like some socially stunted Martian anthropologist, at best. It definitely wasn’t the kind of place that made me feel, “Gee, I sure would like to come back!” even now that I have the appropriate jargon in my back pocket.
Yeah, there’s a big difference between telling trolls to go jump ‘cos this isn’t a 101 space, but people actually wanting to learn AFK about stuff that affects them, and being given the condescending shit? Not cool.
Hell, even the trolls tend to get directed to feminism 101
I wonder if it’d be a good idea to ask Dave to put a Feminism 101 link in the sidebar? It’d be cool to be able to point people asking in good faith, or JAQers-off, to it. Sort of “This isn’t a feminism 101 site, but these are!”
It kills me that even spaces where marginalized people gather themselves have practices that marginalize others. I guess it’s sort of how we learn to do it. I was part of an organization that was majority white and consciously trying to transition into a majority POC space (because that reflected the base we represented). A shit ton of the more important things we did were less about having the correct theoretical position, and more about making people feel welcome, letting them know how to get things done, and answering their questions without making them feel stupid.
Back to the poly question: “And whether she can, if she so chooses, have other partners.”
THIS. If he wants other partners for himself but balks at her doing the same, HUGE red flag. That’s not poly, that’s good old double standards.
Kittehserf brings up an important point. “Rules for thee, but not for me” is almost always a bad sign.
I personally get irritated with describing all non-monogamous relationships as “poly” in shorthand, but it seems to have stuck. As has been said, they come in all shapes and sizes and styles, and figuring out what works for her is pretty much the only way it works. I pretty much second what tenya said. About the only thing I would add extra weight to is that she really should be fine with being not fine with things. Questioning her preconceptions to try something new and see if she’s ok with it is fine. But if she’s not, then she’s not, and that’s what’s right for her. Don’t let people start Poly Douchebag Maneuver Alpha and start up with how she’s “closed minded” or “prudish” or “still thinks of people as possessions” or “not transcended her jealousy yet”. Anyone who starts with any of that should be kicked to the curb post-haste.
lightcastle – I want to quote ALL your second paragraph, in bold, with flashing lights, for truth!