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GirlWritesWhat’s delusional defenses of MGTOW misogyny. Also: Mary Daly, and why the moon is not a potato.

That's no moon!
That’s no moon!

So yesterday I had a strange conversation, of sorts, with blabby FeMRA videoblogger Karen Straughan, aka GirlWritesWhat, via private message on Reddit.

Given that, in the recent WoolyBumblebee controversy, she put herself in the position of defending Men Going Their Own Way against WBB’s mostly accurate attacks on them, I found myself wondering what she might think of my post yesterday on the MGTOWers who felt it was appropriate to let a four-year-old-girl drown because she might grow up to be the next Betty Friedan or even the next — gasp! — Amanda Marcotte.

I was especially interested in what she might have to say about MGTOW elder Zed, the friend and mentor of her A Voice for Men boss, Paul Elam; in the MGTOWforums discussion, you may recall, he was firmly in the “don’t rescue little girls” camp.

So I asked her about that, and asked why she was defending MGTOWers when so many of them don’t even think women should be part of the Men’s Rights movement at all.

Here’s some of what she wrote back:

You seem to be deliberately trying to evoke an outrage in me. First, Zed, “Paul E’s mentor and idol” would not save a child he doesn’t know. Then “MGTOWers…don’t actually think women should be part of the MR movement…”

Do you think I should be expected to die to save a boy I don’t know? Speaking as someone who almost died once to save my son and my nephew, why should I be expected to potentially leave my children orphans to save someone else’s kid? And the truth is, I wouldn’t be expected to do that. In reality, no one would have blamed me if I had chosen not to nearly drown to save my own kid and my sister’s kid. I like your quote mine: Men shouldn’t rescue 4 year old girls… Not what it actually is: Men shouldn’t sacrifice their lives or health to save 4 year old girls they don’t know or have reason to care about…

It’s an interesting way she’s chosen to, well, reframe the issue. Zed didn’t say he was only talking about situations where the rescuers life would be at risk. He said, simply and categorically:

When a female is in trouble, if I don’t know her, I don’t see her.

After demanding that I denounce a random radical feminist who said something terrible, she moved on to my second question, though not without accusing me of “needling” her by pointing out that MGTOWers hate women. Or, as she prefers to look at  it, they don’t “trust” women.

Do I have to list every single psychological lever you’ve attempted to apply in this message? Do you really think I’m going to react like a typical woman? “OMG, those MGTOWs don’t trust women!!! And that means they don’t trust me! I am a herd animal! I am incapable of ignoring naysayers! I can’t stand the fact that perhaps somewhere, someone doesn’t appreciate me!!! How dare they express themselves if it will hurt a woman’s feelings???????”

Woah, there. I think that might have been a bit more revealing than you intended it to be.

So your definition of “typical woman” is “herd animal?” I’ll take “internalized misogyny” for $1000, Alex.

Instead of me asking, “Why would I need anyone’s permission to make videos and assist a movement I believe in? Why would I take it as a personal failing that a man would not risk his life to save my child when I would not potentially orphan my kids to save the kids of some random person? Why would David Futrelle think my outrage over what a handful of MGTOW say about women in the movement should outweigh my own principles?”

Uh, you don’t need anyone’s permission to make your videos. Jewish people don’t need anyone’s permission to start making videos glorifying Adolph Hitler. Black people don’t need anyone’s permission to make videos on behalf of the Klan.

The question is why do you want to? Not just: why are you willing to make videos on behalf of a Men’s Rights movement driven by misogyny. But why are you willing to defend and make excuses for MGTOWers who not only hate women in general but hate you personally?

Why are you willing to lie — apparently even to yourself — and pretend that they don’t really hate women — that, really, it’s just that they don’t “trust” women because some awful woman has hurt them, or because some mean feminist said something insulting about their favorite video game, or whatever the excuse is.

And if you have any doubt that most MGTOWers really and truly hate women — hate hate HATE them — I invite you to read through the archives here. I suggest you start with MGTOWer extraordinaire Christopher in Oregon, and then move on to the posts dealing with MGTOWers in general.

And if you doubt that MGTOWers hate you, you personally, just go down to MGTOWforums, the biggest MGTOW hangout around, and take a look at the threads devoted to AVFM. A lot of the guys there hate AVFM with a passion — and they hate it largely because Paul give a platform to you and other women.

For someone so obsessed with me, you sure don’t know a lot about me.

Huh, wouldn’t that sort of suggest that maybe I’m not actually that obsessed with you?

From what I do know about Straughan (not much) this seems to be a standard ploy she pulls whenever someone calls her on her shit — to try to throw them off-balance and put them on the defensive by declaring them “stalkers” or “obsessed,” as she did with spermjack_attack, a Redditor who’s done some amazing takedowns of GWW posts and videos in recent days, like this one.

I responded by pointing out that

I often write about MRAs. You’re a prominent MRA, so sometimes I write about you. I should probably write more, given that you’re kind of a big fish in your tiny pond, but your videos are so fucking tedious and slow I can’t bear to watch them.

Which is true. That’s why, despite all the attention she gets from her MRA fanboys, I’ve written only three posts about her — compared with seven about the comparatively less important but much more entertaining Christopher in Oregon, mentioned above. Well, this will make it four posts about her.

Anyway, I also called her out on her evasive answer about Zed, so she tried again, this time with a new evasion:

Zed said categorically, “When a female is in trouble, if I don’t know her, I don’t see her.” Let’s parse that. He would not intervene. Why should he be expected to? Do you have any idea how small the burden is on women to intervene? If a woman were being assaulted and a female witness didn’t intervene, would this be shameful? How about if a man were being assaulted?

That’s an odd way of “parsing” it, since in context it was abundantly clear that he wasn’t just talking about adult women being assaulted. He was specifically talking about little girls. The whole point of his argument, which he repeated several times, was that he didn’t want to help little girls because, as he put it, they might “grow … up to be another Amanda Marcunt, or Jessica Valenti, or Betty Friedan.”

Karen, you can pretend he was talking only about adult women, but he wasn’t.

You can pretend that MGTOWers don’t hate women, but they do.

You can pretend whatever you want about the movement you’ve attached yourself to, but guess what — everyone outside of that movement can see it for what it is.

Most of the rest of her comment was devoted to trying to prove how “obsessed” I am with her.

If you are curious about me and why I might involve myself in a movement you believe hates women, you might concede I’d be curious about you and why you involve yourself in a movement that I believe hates men (or masculinity, take your pick). And yet how many times have I initiated contact with you? How often do I devote entire blog posts or videos to you?

Perhaps I’m measuring you by my own yardstick. Because as curious as I am as to why you would ally yourself with a movement whose foundational ideology is hostile to men (no matter how mainstream or seemingly benign), as much as I might lie awake wondering what motivates you, I am simply not obsessed enough by the question to PM you and ask. Or to read your blog (even when you’re talking about me). Or to devote entire blog posts to you.

If I messaged you over anything regarding that, I would consider myself obsessed with the psychological dysfunction represented by you. So you messaging me indicates (to me) a level of obsession on par with that. If you are the type of person to initiate private contact with people you consider opponents on a regular basis, then I’ve misjudged you.

Yes, I confess, sometimes I ask questions of my ideological opponents, publicly or privately, in hopes of getting an interesting response. I certainly got some revealing answers, and even more revealing non-answers, from Straughan.

And it was definitely more interesting than watching one of her videos.

Oh, and for some reason, before she closed up the debate, she decided she wanted to talk about Mary Daly, of all people, whom she seems to think has never been criticized by any feminists ever except for one by the name of, uh … Dr. Mindbeam? No, that’s really what she thinks.  Apparently, in GirlWritesWhat-land,  it was one big feminist love-fest for Mary Daly up until  Dr. Mindbeam came along in 2011 and wrote a blog post.

Mary Daly’s body was long cold before some random internet feminist named Dr Mindbeam finally excommunicated her on “no seriously, what about teh menz?” I haven’t seen any feminists who write under their real names do so.

Maybe you could educate me.

I mentioned Audre Lorde’s open letter to Daly calling her out for racism back in 1979. I suggested she Google “Mary Daly” and “transphobe” and read through some of the results. Might take a while, as there are 5000 of them.

But I’m not sure how one can “educate” someone like her, someone who has declared herself a “gender theorist” and who makes endless half-hour or even hour-long videos on feminism, without bothering to learn even the rudiments of feminist history first. (Lesson One: Feminists often disagree with each other.)

It would be like someone declaring themselves an astrophysics theorist, then declaring “the moon is a potato! I’ve seen no evidence indicating otherwise. If you think you know better, educate me!”

Her understanding of feminism seems stuck at the “moon is a potato” level, and I just don’t think there’s anything any of us can do about it.

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Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@sid

I actually don’t want you to reply. I think everyone just wants you to leave.

Fade
7 years ago

reply to this one i’m honestly curious

do you think people who are not heterosexual exist?

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@sid

although, if you won’t leave, how about you provide a citation for some of those biotruths you were blabbering about. Since I’m not taking your assfax for it.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

Just testing, if I can still post. My last comment disappeared. :/

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

@Marie: Groupthink here is that a sexual marketplace (as a construct) does not exist. I call BS. That’s where the talk of sexual preferences came from. You’re really an uppity bunch… love to see you guys in a martini bar…

Ally S
7 years ago

Oh, and here’s a little lesson on boundaries, asshole:

If someone asks you to not do something to them, stop doing that thing. Again, you claim to be an anti-rape activist – rape by nature is a violation of boundaries.

“Turn on” can refer to non-sexual things that attract a person. Stimultion is only a dirty word because people have dirty minds.

Or because people with dirty minds tend to use those words in a sexual manner. Look, plenty of us have experience with male harassers and abusers, so when men talk about how “stimulating” a woman is, it is fair to assume that they mean it in an objectifying way. You’re being incredibly dishonest here.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

I have one: Sid, do you ever respect people’s boundaries?

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@sid

Groupthink here is that a sexual marketplace (as a construct) does not exist. I call BS.

Provide. A. Citation.

Otherwise, I’ll be forced to conclude that your ass is jealous of the shit that comes out of your mouth.

PS: Do lesbians exist? I need to know if I exist. You know, for science.

Ally S
7 years ago

Okay, more mud is flying and I can’t keep up. Please shortly refer to the arguments you want me to reply to.
I honestly don’t care about arguing with you. I was just saying that I would prefer you to address what I’m saying rather than make weird comments about me. That’s all. Whether you want to argue is your business. I’m not telling you what to do.

@Marie: Groupthink here is that a sexual marketplace (as a construct) does not exist. I call BS. That’s where the talk of sexual preferences came from. You’re really an uppity bunch… love to see you guys in a martini bar…

Saying that something exists as a social construct isn’t tantamount to saying that it doesn’t exist at all. It is merely claim about the conditions of that thing’s existence. Pretty simple to understand.

Ally S
7 years ago

Fixed comment:

Okay, more mud is flying and I can’t keep up. Please shortly refer to the arguments you want me to reply to.

I honestly don’t care about arguing with you. I was just saying that I would prefer you to address what I’m saying rather than make weird comments about me. That’s all. Whether you want to argue is your business. I’m not telling you what to do.

@Marie: Groupthink here is that a sexual marketplace (as a construct) does not exist. I call BS. That’s where the talk of sexual preferences came from. You’re really an uppity bunch… love to see you guys in a martini bar…

Saying that something exists as a social construct isn’t tantamount to saying that it doesn’t exist at all. It is merely claim about the conditions of that thing’s existence. Pretty simple to understand.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Sid,
Nobody here is interested in your made up misogynist bullshit or what makes you happy in your pants. What part of “going away” is the hardest for you? Is it the part where you go or the part where you are away?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Stop creeping on Ally and Marie, Sid, or about 50 mama bears are going to give you a rather firm lesson in respecting boundaries.

Makeup I’m meh on right now, in that there’s nothing new really catching my eye, but I found a new favorite bra! All of the reviews were correct in that this brand is a pain to find your size in, and super uncomfortable until you do, but now that I have found the right size I love this bra. Especially because I found it in purple.

http://fullerfigurefullerbust.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/lucy_bra_thong_purple.jpg

Zombie Marie
Zombie Marie
7 years ago

trying to see if I can actually post. I couldn’t earlier :/

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

I believe in a person’s right to identify how they want to with respect to gender, sexual preference, etc. But really, it’s a case of “how they must” because they are what they are.

My own believe is that human males nad human females have aspects of both “sexes” and that gender is really a gradient.

I actually have a strong female side that includes a strong desire to nurture. I am very good with children. I also find myself… put off? by certain aspect of male behavior. I am not the most competetive guy around, and I don’t like to engage in “peacocking” with other males, because I dunno I just don’t give a f*ck?

Fade
7 years ago

ffs, nurture is not gendered. stooooooop

i’m put off by lots of aspects of male behavior. if need examples, see: all of sids comments XD

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

And the “All about Sid” show is still on, I see…

Ally S
7 years ago

I believe in a person’s right to identify how they want to with respect to gender, sexual preference, etc. But really, it’s a case of “how they must” because they are what they are.

I’m a trans girl, and I’m also a real girl – just as real as those girls with ovaries, vulvas, high estrogen hormonal constitution, XX chromosomes, etc. So in that sense, I indeed am what I am. I’m not male as you are suggesting here, though.

My own believe is that human males nad human females have aspects of both “sexes” and that gender is really a gradient.

That’s because sex is an unstable construct. There is no reason to classify some bodies as female and other bodies as male. They can be instead classified according to reproductive capabilities. Gender is also an unstable construct, albeit for different reasons.

I actually have a strong female side that includes a strong desire to nurture. I am very good with children. I also find myself… put off? by certain aspect of male behavior. I am not the most competetive guy around, and I don’t like to engage in “peacocking” with other males, because I dunno I just don’t give a f*ck?

Good for you, but the tendency to nurture isn’t exclusive to women. And so calling it “female” is nonsense.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Given the level of “please talk to meeeeeee!!!!!” desperation in the last few comments I think I know whose sock this is now.

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

@cassandrakitty. You don’t want to talk about your new bras. C’mon. That’s really a weak attempt at troll bait. Seriously. I’m slow but I’m not that slow. Really. I am offended now…

So is your bras comfy? Functional? Did it have the desired effect? Was it on sale? I switched (no lie) from briefs to boxers and I actually feel more confident. I am NOT kidding. Or trying to be perverse. It’s a better garment, overall. Less bunching where leg meets trunk. I recommend all men (or women who wear mens underwear) to try it.

I used to go bras shopping with my wife, make cute bras jokes and get the sales gals giggling. I’ve never offended a woman in a bras shop once. That’s skill. In real life I have filters that make me socially acceptable… That’s why the internet is so much fun….

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

Come off it Sid. Everyone knows the word stimulus or stimulate can be used in a sexual manner depending on the context. It’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.

For example: I find President Obama attractive. One time I joked to my friend that “he can give me his stimulus package anytime.” The word became sexual.

Of course, I’m not creepy and invasive so in the unlikely even that I ever get to meet him, I would not say that to him. My default assumption (even though married people sometimes cheat) is that a married man would not welcome that kind of comment. Boundaries!

Your comments to Ally and Marie are unwelcome. Yet you keep defending them. That is very creepy.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Points for creeping on an adult rather than a teenager this time, but then you just had to lose them all by being too obvious. “Trying” too hard is a troll fail.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@sid

’ve never offended a woman in a bras shop once.

unhuh. Sure. I believe you.

(…not)

Also, I was really curious about whether Sid thought lesbians (or other queer people) existed. Or trans people. He seemed to talk around it. :/

And I’m back 😀 The spam filter went rogue but David saved me from it! Thanks David 😀

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

I’m not a sock puppet I am totally new here.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

I am offended now…

QQ

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

It’s a bra(s) shop. All it sells is bras. No knickers, because Sid doesn’t know what the names of the different styles are, which leaves him unable to flesh out his fantasy with sufficient detail.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@cassandra

On the note of bras, I’ve always wanted to try a balcony bra, but haven’t been able to. Tho I do have an impressive bra-shopping story: last time I went to the bra store, the lady helping me picked out a bra for me that fit perfectly first time. 😀 (I told her my suspected size range, but still. Pretty impressive)

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

Oh dear.

used to go bras shopping with my wife, make cute bras jokes and get the sales gals giggling. I’ve never offended a woman in a bras shop once. That’s skill. In real life I have filters that make me socially acceptable… That’s why the internet is so much fun….

Do you not realize that sales people (did you really just say gals?) are paid to be nice to customers? They probably talked shit about you as soon as you left. Everyone who works in retail, customer service and restaurants mocks their annoying customers.

I see you’ve given up on playing innocent and have admitted you were trying to be creepy and gross.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Aside about Obama – even if I was cheating-inclined, I like his wife far too much to do such a thing. I suspect that this idea may be deeply confusing to our various misogynist trolls.

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

@ Marie

If you’re in the D+ range, definitely try a balcony bra. The structure tends to be more uplift-friendly for larger busts than a full cup, plus it’s less likely to make an unexpected appearance in low-cut shirts.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Sure you, are Sid.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@cassandra

If you’re in the D+ range, definitely try a balcony bra. The structure tends to be more uplift-friendly for larger busts than a full cup, plus it’s less likely to make an unexpected appearance in low-cut shirts.

ack. So jealous. I so will, next time I have money. (I’m a G, so definitely D+)

Ally S
7 years ago

Stop creeping on Ally and Marie, Sid, or about 50 mama bears are going to give you a rather firm lesson in respecting boundaries.

Things like this are why I love this place. <3

But yeah, Sid, Marie and I are teenage lesbians (I'm 19 myself), so in case you still have no idea why we were creeped out by your comments, you may have a better idea now. I can only hope that you won't double down and be an asshole again.

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

Sure I am what? Sorry, I am digging out of mud here…

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

Bra twins! I just discovered that I’d been wearing the wrong cup size, which is kind of funny since I was all smug about thinking that I already was before.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@Ally

Things like this are why I love this place. <3

Me too. The first time someone was mama-beary towards me I got so fuzzy inside, cuz it rarely happens out of here 😀

But yeah, Sid, Marie and I are teenage lesbians (I’m 19 myself), so in case you still have no idea why we were creeped out by your comments, you may have a better idea now. I can only hope that you won’t double down and be an asshole again

I’m 19 too 😀

@cassandra

Bra twins! I just discovered that I’d been wearing the wrong cup size, which is kind of funny since I was all smug about thinking that I already was before.

Same here.Idk if my boobs have actually been getting bigger with age, but I don’t think it they have the amount I changed by.

For the longest time I just went up in band size, even though I was getting bigger boobs (I’m talking, like 14-17, here. Young, still growing.)In the past 2 yrs I went from a 38 B to a 36 D to a 34 G, in terms of what I wear. And…I hope I have the right size now, but was bras you can never tell.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Sure you’re new to this place. Pull the other one, creep.

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

Teenage lesbians. 19 y.o. Yeah, that would explain certain sensitivities. Okay, so I apologize for the intellectual comment, it was meant in harmless fun and not intended to be offensive or cause actual vomiting… play on the words “stimulating”. Risque language. Might be well inappropriate here. I am really just being myself in a place where being myself is a good idea, but I think I am taking the mud facials pretty good too without resorting to SUPER yucky. THat’s my perspective on it anyways.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Save the apologies and just go. Shoo.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@Sid

fuck off. ‘certain sensitivities’ like what, asshat?

Okay, so I apologize for the intellectual comment, it was meant in harmless fun and not intended to be offensive or cause actual vomiting… play on the words “stimulating”. Risque language.

And while it was creepier cuz of who you were saying it to, it still would have been inappropriate either way. drive that through your thick skull.

but I think I am taking the mud facials pretty good too without resorting to SUPER yucky.

You can think that. You’d be wrong, but I guess you still will think that.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

‘Risque language’ more like ‘I’m being a creepy asshole, but need to find a way to avoid admitting it’. Whatever gets you through the night, Sid.

Ally S
7 years ago

@Sid

I’m only speaking for myself, but thanks for at least having the decency to apologize.

And it isn’t the case that it “might” be inappropriate – we told you ourselves that it was inappropriate. It can’t get clearer than that.

Also, a good apology shouldn’t really have any self-congratulatory remarks, nor should it include self-centered statements such as “I am really just being myself.” If someone were saying upsetting things to you and they said “I’m just being myself”, wouldn’t you call that person an asshole?

Ally S
7 years ago

Oh, and I should clarify that I’m not principally opposed to being myself. In fact, like a lot of people, my entire life is centered around rejecting the labels and categories that people impose on me. But being an asshole is not an inherent part of being true to oneself, nor should it ever be accepted as such.

cloudiah
7 years ago

When “being yourself” involves creeping on teenage lesbians, I would like to argue in favor of “not being yourself” and instead going your own way.

cloudiah
7 years ago

That is a lovely purple bra, @cassandrakitty.

What is a balcony bra?

Ally S
7 years ago

And in case it flew over your head, Sid, what you said to cassandrakitty was pretty unacceptable as well. (I apologize if I talked as though only Marie and I were bothered by what he said.)

kittehserf
7 years ago

I’m definitely calling sock on this one. The stench is waaaay too familiar.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Which sock? I never recognize them!

Ally S
7 years ago

And yeah, that is a really nice bra. Personally, though, I’d probably feel much more comfortable with bras that are black, grey, or white. I don’t know why.