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GirlWritesWhat’s delusional defenses of MGTOW misogyny. Also: Mary Daly, and why the moon is not a potato.

That's no moon!
That’s no moon!

So yesterday I had a strange conversation, of sorts, with blabby FeMRA videoblogger Karen Straughan, aka GirlWritesWhat, via private message on Reddit.

Given that, in the recent WoolyBumblebee controversy, she put herself in the position of defending Men Going Their Own Way against WBB’s mostly accurate attacks on them, I found myself wondering what she might think of my post yesterday on the MGTOWers who felt it was appropriate to let a four-year-old-girl drown because she might grow up to be the next Betty Friedan or even the next — gasp! — Amanda Marcotte.

I was especially interested in what she might have to say about MGTOW elder Zed, the friend and mentor of her A Voice for Men boss, Paul Elam; in the MGTOWforums discussion, you may recall, he was firmly in the “don’t rescue little girls” camp.

So I asked her about that, and asked why she was defending MGTOWers when so many of them don’t even think women should be part of the Men’s Rights movement at all.

Here’s some of what she wrote back:

You seem to be deliberately trying to evoke an outrage in me. First, Zed, “Paul E’s mentor and idol” would not save a child he doesn’t know. Then “MGTOWers…don’t actually think women should be part of the MR movement…”

Do you think I should be expected to die to save a boy I don’t know? Speaking as someone who almost died once to save my son and my nephew, why should I be expected to potentially leave my children orphans to save someone else’s kid? And the truth is, I wouldn’t be expected to do that. In reality, no one would have blamed me if I had chosen not to nearly drown to save my own kid and my sister’s kid. I like your quote mine: Men shouldn’t rescue 4 year old girls… Not what it actually is: Men shouldn’t sacrifice their lives or health to save 4 year old girls they don’t know or have reason to care about…

It’s an interesting way she’s chosen to, well, reframe the issue. Zed didn’t say he was only talking about situations where the rescuers life would be at risk. He said, simply and categorically:

When a female is in trouble, if I don’t know her, I don’t see her.

After demanding that I denounce a random radical feminist who said something terrible, she moved on to my second question, though not without accusing me of “needling” her by pointing out that MGTOWers hate women. Or, as she prefers to look at  it, they don’t “trust” women.

Do I have to list every single psychological lever you’ve attempted to apply in this message? Do you really think I’m going to react like a typical woman? “OMG, those MGTOWs don’t trust women!!! And that means they don’t trust me! I am a herd animal! I am incapable of ignoring naysayers! I can’t stand the fact that perhaps somewhere, someone doesn’t appreciate me!!! How dare they express themselves if it will hurt a woman’s feelings???????”

Woah, there. I think that might have been a bit more revealing than you intended it to be.

So your definition of “typical woman” is “herd animal?” I’ll take “internalized misogyny” for $1000, Alex.

Instead of me asking, “Why would I need anyone’s permission to make videos and assist a movement I believe in? Why would I take it as a personal failing that a man would not risk his life to save my child when I would not potentially orphan my kids to save the kids of some random person? Why would David Futrelle think my outrage over what a handful of MGTOW say about women in the movement should outweigh my own principles?”

Uh, you don’t need anyone’s permission to make your videos. Jewish people don’t need anyone’s permission to start making videos glorifying Adolph Hitler. Black people don’t need anyone’s permission to make videos on behalf of the Klan.

The question is why do you want to? Not just: why are you willing to make videos on behalf of a Men’s Rights movement driven by misogyny. But why are you willing to defend and make excuses for MGTOWers who not only hate women in general but hate you personally?

Why are you willing to lie — apparently even to yourself — and pretend that they don’t really hate women — that, really, it’s just that they don’t “trust” women because some awful woman has hurt them, or because some mean feminist said something insulting about their favorite video game, or whatever the excuse is.

And if you have any doubt that most MGTOWers really and truly hate women — hate hate HATE them — I invite you to read through the archives here. I suggest you start with MGTOWer extraordinaire Christopher in Oregon, and then move on to the posts dealing with MGTOWers in general.

And if you doubt that MGTOWers hate you, you personally, just go down to MGTOWforums, the biggest MGTOW hangout around, and take a look at the threads devoted to AVFM. A lot of the guys there hate AVFM with a passion — and they hate it largely because Paul give a platform to you and other women.

For someone so obsessed with me, you sure don’t know a lot about me.

Huh, wouldn’t that sort of suggest that maybe I’m not actually that obsessed with you?

From what I do know about Straughan (not much) this seems to be a standard ploy she pulls whenever someone calls her on her shit — to try to throw them off-balance and put them on the defensive by declaring them “stalkers” or “obsessed,” as she did with spermjack_attack, a Redditor who’s done some amazing takedowns of GWW posts and videos in recent days, like this one.

I responded by pointing out that

I often write about MRAs. You’re a prominent MRA, so sometimes I write about you. I should probably write more, given that you’re kind of a big fish in your tiny pond, but your videos are so fucking tedious and slow I can’t bear to watch them.

Which is true. That’s why, despite all the attention she gets from her MRA fanboys, I’ve written only three posts about her — compared with seven about the comparatively less important but much more entertaining Christopher in Oregon, mentioned above. Well, this will make it four posts about her.

Anyway, I also called her out on her evasive answer about Zed, so she tried again, this time with a new evasion:

Zed said categorically, “When a female is in trouble, if I don’t know her, I don’t see her.” Let’s parse that. He would not intervene. Why should he be expected to? Do you have any idea how small the burden is on women to intervene? If a woman were being assaulted and a female witness didn’t intervene, would this be shameful? How about if a man were being assaulted?

That’s an odd way of “parsing” it, since in context it was abundantly clear that he wasn’t just talking about adult women being assaulted. He was specifically talking about little girls. The whole point of his argument, which he repeated several times, was that he didn’t want to help little girls because, as he put it, they might “grow … up to be another Amanda Marcunt, or Jessica Valenti, or Betty Friedan.”

Karen, you can pretend he was talking only about adult women, but he wasn’t.

You can pretend that MGTOWers don’t hate women, but they do.

You can pretend whatever you want about the movement you’ve attached yourself to, but guess what — everyone outside of that movement can see it for what it is.

Most of the rest of her comment was devoted to trying to prove how “obsessed” I am with her.

If you are curious about me and why I might involve myself in a movement you believe hates women, you might concede I’d be curious about you and why you involve yourself in a movement that I believe hates men (or masculinity, take your pick). And yet how many times have I initiated contact with you? How often do I devote entire blog posts or videos to you?

Perhaps I’m measuring you by my own yardstick. Because as curious as I am as to why you would ally yourself with a movement whose foundational ideology is hostile to men (no matter how mainstream or seemingly benign), as much as I might lie awake wondering what motivates you, I am simply not obsessed enough by the question to PM you and ask. Or to read your blog (even when you’re talking about me). Or to devote entire blog posts to you.

If I messaged you over anything regarding that, I would consider myself obsessed with the psychological dysfunction represented by you. So you messaging me indicates (to me) a level of obsession on par with that. If you are the type of person to initiate private contact with people you consider opponents on a regular basis, then I’ve misjudged you.

Yes, I confess, sometimes I ask questions of my ideological opponents, publicly or privately, in hopes of getting an interesting response. I certainly got some revealing answers, and even more revealing non-answers, from Straughan.

And it was definitely more interesting than watching one of her videos.

Oh, and for some reason, before she closed up the debate, she decided she wanted to talk about Mary Daly, of all people, whom she seems to think has never been criticized by any feminists ever except for one by the name of, uh … Dr. Mindbeam? No, that’s really what she thinks.  Apparently, in GirlWritesWhat-land,  it was one big feminist love-fest for Mary Daly up until  Dr. Mindbeam came along in 2011 and wrote a blog post.

Mary Daly’s body was long cold before some random internet feminist named Dr Mindbeam finally excommunicated her on “no seriously, what about teh menz?” I haven’t seen any feminists who write under their real names do so.

Maybe you could educate me.

I mentioned Audre Lorde’s open letter to Daly calling her out for racism back in 1979. I suggested she Google “Mary Daly” and “transphobe” and read through some of the results. Might take a while, as there are 5000 of them.

But I’m not sure how one can “educate” someone like her, someone who has declared herself a “gender theorist” and who makes endless half-hour or even hour-long videos on feminism, without bothering to learn even the rudiments of feminist history first. (Lesson One: Feminists often disagree with each other.)

It would be like someone declaring themselves an astrophysics theorist, then declaring “the moon is a potato! I’ve seen no evidence indicating otherwise. If you think you know better, educate me!”

Her understanding of feminism seems stuck at the “moon is a potato” level, and I just don’t think there’s anything any of us can do about it.

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Fade
7 years ago

blap. i see it now 🙁 my brain sometimes edits out adjectives

cloudiah
7 years ago

Genes wear pants?

Also, it just seems to me that commenting on a feminist blog about what kind of makeup women should wear to best please your penis is kind of the opposite of actually going your own way. And it’s really creepy.

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

@Marie: ”

“No one curr about what makes Sid’s boner happy.”

Well, it’s not everybody’s job now is it? It’s not my job to concern myself about making your va-jay jay happy and truthfully I was not thinking about boners and va-jay-jay’s until you brought it up. Group trigger alert: Marie is horny. (It’s okay, it’s Friday… and spring time!)

Okay, and thanks for acknowledging I am not just a sexual human being, but that I have a verile and functioning male member.

I think people in general have become neurotic about sexuality. I don’t blame people who are surivors of sex abuse for having hangups. I totally understand. I am talking about people in general. I would hazard a guess that feminists are more… *aware* (sensitive) about their sexuality and any sexual attention they would garner.

So how IS one supposed to act out in public then? I see some gal in a sleeveless vest with a pixie haircut and dark eyes (oh yeah, this is good) and I find her attractive and I can’t tell if her open affection for her girlfriend is girly-girl BFF stuff or if they are a couple… Right none of my business. Oops too late I already looked, oops she looked back, quick grin and admit you were caught looking. Don’t keep staring don’t keep staring!

So, I can’t even CONTROL how I think, and I don’t want to be creepy. I know I can leer if I let my guard down… I would like to talk to her.

“Hey”.
(hey)
“Sup.”
(You’re creepy)
“K I’ll go.”

Really though, people are human. Give males a break for one second here, we’re programmed to like women and apparently we’ve been DOING IT WRONG. Yet, despite feminism being mainstream, men and women are hooking up all the time despite creepy encounters being at an alleged all time high…

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

Oh, Ally S, you’re so intellectually attractive. You say such provocative things, but I digress. I take full responsibility for feeling provoked (and intellectually stimulated)

I’mma have to creep-shame the fuck out of you, you creepy creep.

What’s the collective noun for a group of misogynists?

A vomit?

Sexual market is place is a widely accepted construct,

So is the “friendzone”, but that don’t make it real.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Yeah, most men are in fact capable of not being creepy, Sid. It’s not rocket science. It’s not even engineering.

Fade
7 years ago

Well, it’s not everybody’s job now is it? It’s not my job to concern myself about making your va-jay jay happy and truthfully I was not thinking about boners and va-jay-jay’s until you brought it up.

lol, she’s not blabbering about her sexual preferences on the internet to people who don’t give a fuck. you are

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

What’s the collective noun for a group of misogynists?

A morose? A mumble?

cassandrakitty
cassandrakitty
7 years ago

It’s not even building a paper airplane level in terms of difficulty, actually.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

The best part about this thread is that you can skip Sid’s teal deer entirely and just read the responses and it’s hilarious.

Het Sid, we don;t starve trolls here. We feed ’em til they burst.

Having a new toy to chew on now and then keeps our teeth nice and pointy.

As to all your blubbering about how mean and shallow teh wimminz is:

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140425181138/walkingdead/images/f/f6/Didn't_read_lul.gif

http://www.lifeinprogress.ca/.a/6a0120a95a88d5970b01a511aa8267970c-800wi
comment image

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

Feminists – you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I know I was shocked by this revelation.

Group trigger alert: Marie is horny.

That’s it, I’m emailing David.

*hugs* for Marie and Ally

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

@hellkell

“No, nope, and assumes everyone wants children, which isn’t true.”

WHAT? Oh cummon. Do you have any idea why some people say that some feminists are trying to deny their biology? Do you think that because you’ve said to the feminine universe that you don’t want kids Mother-Feminist is going to shut off your mate selection subsystem for you?

hellkell you’ve seen a person in the last 6 months and said, in your head, “I’d hit that”.
You may have said it nicer, or maybe it was just a feeling, but man or woman, there was a person you found attractive and when you got closer and they SMELLED GOOD, damn, did you smile at them? no? Cause you don’t want kids? We you wearing your

I AM A FEMINIST WHO DOES NOT WANT KIDS SO F*CK OFF AND DON’T APPROACH ME

T-shirt?

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Sorry for the typos.
There are large dogs playing around my chair.
My chair has wheels.
It’s sort of out of hand.

Ally S
7 years ago

Oh, Ally S, you’re so intellectually attractive. You say such provocative things, but I digress. I take full responsibility for feeling provoked (and intellectually stimulated) and in no way imply that you were attempting to illicit such a response….

I don’t even know how to respond to this.

C’mon. People DO IT. It exists because people give credence to the construct and play within it’s confines and rules. People make it real – and the construct was created from a model of real human behavior. THrow me a bone here.

A model of real human behavior? What on earth are you talking about? The market is a economic construct that in no way exists as an innate feature of human society. And because of that, I am saying that accepting the theory of sexual markets as valid entails an acceptance of biased biological discourse in favor of sexism. (Regardless of whether the researchers themselves identify as sexist or whatever.) It also obscures the analyses of power dynamics that in no way relate to a half-assed analysis of human economies.

So, is it biology then? Do you buy this “genetic priority” stuff? People trying to get into the pants of the best genes, from a biological imperative perspective?

I don’t care about that question. The problem in the first place is that question’s uncritical acceptance of the discursively constructed sex binary. Male and female are not absolute categories and in fact rest on an unstable, artificial dichotomy.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Sid, you are a creepy fucker with bad boundaries. I already said no one cares what makes your boner happy.

What’s the collective noun for a group of misogynists?

Assholes.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

Lea, that sounds like heaven!

Fade
7 years ago

yay he’s gotten to biotruths!!!

hey, sid, do people who want same gender relationships exist? Do people who care if their partners reproductive organs match up with theirs so they can have a kid exist? Do asexual people exist? please enlighten us

titianblue
titianblue
7 years ago

I want to be where Lea is.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Sid: you jagoff, being attracted to someone and wanting to have sex with them and wanting children are two separate things.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Ha!
“Hey” got turned into “Het”.
Typo or Freudian slip?

He’s pretty heteronormative.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

That is why your “biological imperative” argument falls on its face.

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

1) Finding something intellectually stimulating is not creepy.
2) The other person mentioned my boner so I thought a certain level of discussion of a sexual nature was within the group parameters here, assuming adults can talk about their sexuality from a human-experience perspective, with some semblance of self honesty…

cloudiah
7 years ago

And now he doesn’t believe that the desire to bear children is not always connected to sexual attraction. Wow. That plus creeping on Marie and Ally, while still trying to pretend he’s going his own way.

This is some Olympic-level obtuseness happening.

Fade
7 years ago

2) The other person mentioned my boner so I thought a certain level of discussion of a sexual nature was within the group parameters here

she was talking about yousharing what you found attractive with us when none of us asked or cared ffs

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

Sid’s so dense we may have a black hole on our hands soon.

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

Wow. Look at the brain on that woman… Seriously. I like smart nerd-girls too. Kill me with fire…

cloudiah
7 years ago

Hey, who wants to talk about makeup? I found this new pseudo-BB cream by a brand called NARS that I like. It makes it look like I’m not wearing any makeup, which is very much misandry.

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

NARS is good stuff in general. I am addicted to their lip crayons.

cloudiah
7 years ago

The best part is that I did the TSA thing where you put it in a plastic bag and take it out of your carry-on when you go through security, and then I fucking left it behind in the tray.

Grrr.

But now I know to look for their lip crayons. To make my lips look like they belong to someone who would bear healthy children, obviously. XD

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

I don’t wear makeup, but any acne/oily skin tips would be welcome.

Fade
7 years ago

@cloudiah

what color is the lip crayon? Once we know then we can find out what makes men tick…

blue = cyanosis is so sexy
red = wtf is wrong with your lips why is there blood there?
green = i don’t even wanna go there..

Ally S
7 years ago

Wow. Look at the brain on that woman… Seriously. I like smart nerd-girls too. Kill me with fire…

I hope this isn’t directed at me. If so, you should know that since I’m not into guys I really don’t care about what turns you on.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@Sid

number 1. I wasn’t the person who said that quote.

number 2

. Give males a break for one second here, we’re programmed to like women and apparently we’ve been DOING IT WRONG.

Hey, I’m ‘programmed’ to like women, and I manage to do it without being a raging misogynist. So maybe you can act like an adult and take responsibility for your own actions.

Group trigger alert: Marie is horny.

Ew. Please go fuck off into a black hole and never speak to another human being again.

@emilygoddess

*hugs* for Marie and Ally

thank. Hugs eagerly accepted.

@sid

I AM A FEMINIST WHO DOES NOT WANT KIDS SO F*CK OFF AND DON’T APPROACH ME

I actually do want kids, but I also need a shirt like this, so sid will leave me alone.

1) Finding something intellectually stimulating is not creepy.

The time, and way you said it was creepy, you pathetic, dense, asshat.

@cloudiah

That plus creeping on Marie and Ally, while still trying to pretend he’s going his own way.

to be honest, I’m amazed sid got a hatecrush on me, since I only posted, like, 2 comments on this thread so far. (not counting this one.)

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

Wow. Look at the brain on that woman… Seriously. I like smart nerd-girls too. Kill me with fire…

Shorter sid: PEOPLE KEEP CALLING ME CREEPY SO I WILL ACT CREEPIER!

Fade
7 years ago

I AM A FEMINIST WHO DOES NOT WANT KIDS SO F*CK OFF AND DON’T APPROACH ME

I actually do want kids, but I also need a shirt like this, so sid will leave me alone.

besides, it’s way too long to put on a shirt. I think EVIL FEMINIST is much shorter and snappier or DUDES FUCK OFF or earbuds XD

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

The time, and way you said it was creepy, you pathetic, dense, asshat.

Oh, he knows. He knows exactly what he’s doing.

Ally S
7 years ago

Group trigger alert: Marie is horny.

Do you have any god damn self-awareness or desire to not be a jerk? This isn’t becoming of someone who claims to be an anti-rape activist. Ignoring someone’s boundaries is highly inconsistent with opposing rape – in fact, the two tend to never coexist. Leave her alone.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

They are kinda cute, if the drool and the farts don’t bother you. I’ve grown desensitized.

There is also a cat who has decided that when my butt hits this seat, it is because I want to pet her. This makes capitalizing things hard. Because when I use both hands to type, she headbutts me in the elbow and meows at me. Anywhere else in the house, she has no use for me. She’s not an affectionate cat. I cannot remember exactly when this started, but it’s become a thing. I don’t mind. It is important that I keep my feline overlords content.

but

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

@David:

Okay okay…There is no need to be directly sexual with people, even when discussing human sexuality. Right? That’s fair.

But, since I’m being called out on a technicality, the other person said “boner” first.

If we’re backing away from sexual inuendo then that’s fine with me.

Being intellectually stimulated is not “technically” creepy. (truth)
I was being creepy (truth).

But I do find this Ally person is good at seeding conversation for debate… all things to do with stimulation and provocation aside…

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

I could actually talk inappropriately about what turns me on, but I don’t want to be a douchehat, so I’ll just laugh at sid, not imitate him.

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

She’s a sensitive person who talks about people’s “boners” in reference to their sexual preferences, and that’s okay, but to suggest she is horny (in jest) is a federal offense?

Okay, if you say so.

Lea
Lea
7 years ago

Emily,
Have you tried rice paper?
You can buy it in little packs at beauty supply stores. It has just a touch of powder on it and you use it to blot the oily spots on your face.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@lea

Because when I use both hands to type, she headbutts me in the elbow and meows at me.

D’awww.

@sid

But, since I’m being called out on a technicality, the other person said “boner” first.

because this thread has been all about what sid finds attractive. Don’t play that false equivilance shit, you’re the one who brought this up.

Being intellectually stimulated is not “technically” creepy. (truth)
I was being creepy (truth).

But I do find this Ally person is good at seeding conversation for debate… all things to do with stimulation and provocation aside

So you do admit you were being creepy, you’re just still creeping on Ally because you’re a piece of human garbage.

PS: she’s not provocing you. You’re just creeping on her because you’re a pathetic human being who won’t take ‘fuck off’ for an answer.

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@sid

She’s a sensitive person who talks about people’s “boners” in reference to their sexual preferences, and that’s okay, but to suggest she is horny (in jest) is a federal offense?

Okay, if you say so.

1) you misquoted me, jackass. I never said anything about boners.
2) you’re the one making this all about your sexual preferences. Put two and two together.
3) can’t you flounce now? Nobody wants you here.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
7 years ago

@Lea, that’s a good idea, thanks!

@Sid, NO ONE WANTS YOU HERE. LEARN TO BOUNDARIES.

weirwoodtreehugger
7 years ago

I don’t want to get trapped in the misogyny black hole. We should figure out where the event horizon lies so it can be avoided.

Ally S
7 years ago

Being intellectually stimulated is not “technically” creepy. (truth)
I was being creepy (truth).

And you act this way towards me after I fucking tell you about my history of being bullied and sexually harassed by men and tell you that I’m a lesbian. For fuck’s sake, do you still have trouble understanding why people here aren’t being kind to you? Hint: it’s not our fault. You know how to listen to us – you just don’t care, like so many other men I know.

But I do find this Ally person is good at seeding conversation for debate… all things to do with stimulation and provocation aside…

How about you respond to my arguments, not remain silent in the face of them and instead make patronizing remarks about me? If it was because I phrased things too verbosely, I can try to explain again, but I have a feeling that that’s not really an issue – it’s just your male entitlement.

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

“Turn on” can refer to non-sexual things that attract a person. Stimultion is only a dirty word because people have dirty minds. I am stimulated at work and it has nothing to do with sex or erections. I am “attracted” to a female coworker because of her raw intelligence, and I don’t think the attraction has very much of a sexual component, but she is also a nerd girl so that complicates the situation. Could both happen simultaneously? IN any case, we are friends and coworkers and boundaries, to date, have been maintained successfully. It also helps that she doesn’t have her panties all up in a bunch despite being a Christian Conservative Feminist!

Marie
Marie
7 years ago

@sid

please stop talking about what you are attracted to. Believe it or not, nobody cares.

Insidious_Sid
Insidious_Sid
7 years ago

Okay, more mud is flying and I can’t keep up. Please shortly refer to the arguments you want me to reply to.