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antifeminism feminism inspiring misogyny MRA oppressed white men PUA rape rape culture

Up from misogyny?

9

A couple of interesting reads:

Check out Escaping the Friendzone: The story of a former right-wing MRA on Jezebel Groupthink, a confessional mini-memoir by a dude who traces his “transition from misogynist, homophobic, right-wing MRA to raging intersectional feminist atheist leftist.”

Meanwhile, that guy who just got that rapey pickup manual funded by Kickstarter, Ken Hoinsky? Well, he’s apparently been quite upset by the criticism and is now pledging to make the manual entirely non-rapey. No, really. He met with the guy who started the petition about his book, and released an apology of sorts saying, among other things:

The concept that someone could interpret what I was writing to be a rape guide shocked me at first. But I took a long look in the mirror and absorbed all the great feedback coming in from across the Internet…

Here is what I realized: In the most offensive and controversial parts, I chose my words poorly. Very, very poorly. I meant one thing and people were reading another. THIS IS A MAJOR PROBLEM. I needed to seriously evaluate every last word of my writing to make sure I wasn’t encouraging sexual assault in any way, shape, or form.

Ben Kassoy of DoSomething.Org … graciously offered to meet with me to provide alternate opinions and insights to help remove all of the potentially harmful advice. I am proud to say that his was the first of many meetings I will be having with anti-rape and anti-abuse organizations and experts to make sure that the advice I am offering is free of any tinge of sexual assault or rape vibes. I will be rewriting Above The Game under their guidance and insight.

Right here, on abovethegame.info, I will be starting an international dialogue on how we remove the negative stigma and shame that drives men to seek out seduction advice in the first place. My name may have been martyred in the press, but I will be using this opportunity for good.

The answer isn’t censoring all dialogue surrounding the issue ala Kickstarter’s statement on banning all men’s dating guide projects. Women’s rights and “male seduction guides” can and should coexist

P.S. To my loyal followers from reddit, you should already be aware my writings are not intended to encourage rape. So rest assured the final book will be in the same style you are used to. I’m just taking us to the next level.

Frankly, it doesn’t sound like he’s really learned much of anything from the experience yet, but if he actually follows through with his promised meetings with anti-rape activists he might. We’ll just have to see how that goes.

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Crimson Riegn
7 years ago

Hurray for hope!

eseldbosustow
7 years ago

I guess a begrudging nod of approval is in order… for now.

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
7 years ago

I feel like if he continues to meet with and is actually interested in anti-rape and anti-violence awareness campaigns he’ll never release his book. Because if he’s actually interested in that, there’s going to be nothing left to publish to PUAs. I mean, he could publish a guide on how to act confident and meet people, but it wouldn’t resemble anything PUA I don’t think…

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
7 years ago

Kassoy’s going to have an easy job.
1. Dip entire manuscript in red ink.
2. Toss in trash and/or fireplace.

pecunium
7 years ago

I don’t buy it. I’ve been tweeting about it. His “Field Reports” list events which are assault, and one which is borderline rape (he did listen when she told him to pull out).

and this:

When pressed to address a separate incident in which Hoinsky shoved a woman (“caveman-ing her against the wall”) in a club and later boasted on Reddit that his tactics resulted in him receiving oral sex “in a dark corner of the club,” Hoinsky avoided the question entirely:

I’ll be honest, I’m not ready to comment publicly on things like that. It works as a seduction move but I haven’t had the time to talk to the women’s rights people about how to justify that. Maybe it’s okay in certain situations, maybe it’s not! This is why I am trying to start the dialogue instead of censoring it as usual.

He’s trying to figure out how to get “The women’s rights people” to help him “*justify* a low rent version of “Rape Game. He has said he hopes his work with them will get him a wider audience, and more credibility; outside the PUA community.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Yeah, I’m too cynical to believe this isn’t just a marketing ploy. I suppose it could be in theory possible to write a non-misogynistic dating guide for straight men that treats women like human beings — I’ve just never seen it.

Am I the last to notice that there’s a new Pierre? http://pierre.thecomicseries.com/comics/pl/313020

auggziliary
auggziliary
7 years ago

Part of me doesn’t buy it, but hey, it’s better than nothing.
I can’t say anything until he writes the next non-rapey version and its actually not rapey like he promised.

MaudeLL
7 years ago

Bwahahaha!
Good new Pierre, Katz.

cloudiah
7 years ago

And it looks like he’s deleted all his replies, or maybe his whole account? Still visible here:
http://www.reddit.com/user/TofuTofu

Quackers
Quackers
7 years ago

I don’t buy it. I’ve seen too much of what these creeps promote. Their intention is to get laid and that’s it. Also from all I’ve read on PUA blogs I don’t see how you can separate misogyny from PUA. Their core beliefs stem from beliefs they have about “female nature” and how to manipulate it either psychologically, emotionally or in that freak Fartiste’s case- physically.

If he is indeed telling the truth, will it even be PUA? or just normal advice on how to attract a mate?

I don’t exactly buy this crap that he is just SHOCKED that his advice was at best promoting crossing boundaries and at worst, promoting sexual assault. I hate it when some men play dumb like this. On minute they’re gloating about how they are so rational, the next they say their shitty boundary crossing and harassment is just in their nature, why are people getting so upset GOSH.

Shitbags.

Quackers
Quackers
7 years ago

Also David, you should check out TyphoidBlue’s youtube. She made an apology video, apparently she’s the one who mixed up the screenshots in that whole Violence Against Men debacle.

I didn’t watch the video but she summarizes in the description.

If that is indeed true (which it probably isn’t) what’s with all the lying and fumbling beforehand? and the whole thing with screenshots crashing and adding words? and Google altering results? LOL.

Andrew Johnston
7 years ago

I suppose it could be in theory possible to write a non-misogynistic dating guide for straight men that treats women like human beings — I’ve just never seen it.

That would be an interesting project, actually. The main obstacle would be that it really couldn’t be a “system,” as treating women as identical leads to treating them as objects.

Falconer
7 years ago

Quackers! Has it been a while, or am I going blind?

Quackers
Quackers
7 years ago

@Falconer

Yeah it has been awhile 😛 I mainly have a bad habit of just dropping comments then taking off now (apologies if this seems rude) I have been kinda busy as of late though I still read Manboobz each day. I still lurk on manosphere sites though not as much, because I think I’ve reached the point where none of this surprises anymore. Nothing they say shocks me…I don’t know if that’s good or bad :/

Has anyone noticed a lot more discussion in the news about gender issues or is it just me?

@David

cool look forward to reading it!

hellkell
hellkell
7 years ago

I don’t buy this guy for a second after reading what Pecunium quoted. That is assault.

Cthulhu's Intern
7 years ago

I actually think he might be trying to do it… for now. Once he realizes what no sexual assault or rape actually means, he’s going to be like “What the fuck is this shit?” and go back to what he was doing earlier.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
7 years ago

I think that particular technique loses its effectiveness when we see it trotted out two or three times a week by people who are extremely distressed that they got caught being who they are.

lowquacks
lowquacks
7 years ago

@Cthulu’s Intern

Sounds most right so far. Dude’s going to have a hell of an ideological gap to cross and is going to basically have to scrap the whole thing. I’d give it a year at most before he starts complaining about how picky or hypocritical or something Our Feminist Overlords are and how mean they’ve been to him.

This is like taking a holocaust denial text to a group of actual historians or a jewish history group – conceivably you could rewrite it enough to fit in the more sensible paradigm, but it’d be a completely different text entirely but the time you’ve done that.

lowquacks
lowquacks
7 years ago

That’s the generic you, not you-as-in-Cthulu’s-Intern. I strongly doubt you have written holocaust-denial pamphlets or anything similar.

pecunium
7 years ago

One of the other interesting things is the guys telling Amanda Marcotte that running game on women who know about it is a waste of time.

pecunium
7 years ago

He says the rewriting is going to slow things down, but he expects to be publishing in August.

What’s sad is (on one of his pre-kerfluffle AMAs) he said that some legitimate publishers were interested.

lowquacks
lowquacks
7 years ago

He says the rewriting is going to slow things down, but he expects to be publishing in August.

What’s sad is (on one of his pre-kerfluffle AMAs) he said that some legitimate publishers were interested.

Alright, just lost whatever hope I may have had for the fella. That just screams “oh no, better make some sort of dramatic effort into saving my rapey book’s PR so they someone could still buy it”.

LBT
LBT
7 years ago

Urgh. Yeah, no, not really buying.

As for guide on loving… bell hooks, motherfuckers. All About Love: New Visions. Not a dating guide, but it hammers down what love is, how to bring love into your life, and pulls no punches. Even GIGI read some, and Gigi doesn’t read anything that doesn’t involve horror.

I’m going to just keep reccing awesome shit whenever I see awful shit.

becausescience
becausescience
7 years ago

One of the other interesting things is the guys telling Amanda Marcotte that running game on women who know about it is a waste of time.

But but but that’s not possible! Manosphere blogs said that science has PROVEN that all women everywhere are hardwired to be attracted to men who learn pua secrets! Pua tricks not working on a woman would mean that science itself must be broken!

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
7 years ago

Loved the Groupthink story. I don’t share the exact same path, but I share the continued journey to understand my privilege and account for its biases. (That and I certainly did assholish and dumb stuff and continue to realize I did something dumb just… after.)

becausescience
becausescience
7 years ago

The problems with pua aren’t just techniques but go to the core of the whole “seduction community” itself. A community of guys where it’s reinforced that a man’s status is dependent on how many women he sleeps with, and how “hot” those women are, and where the conversations center around developing the best techniques to get women into bed in the shortest amount of time possible is going to tend towards treating women like objects, like a means to an end.

Moreover, while the manosphere likes to make pua sound like something innocuous and harmless, the material and how it’s advertised isn’t designed to appeal to guys who just want to be a bit more confident or outgoing, but to appeal to guys who think women’s minds can be hacked into, resulting in sex on demand for the hacker.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

Pua tricks not working on a woman would mean that science itself must be broken!

No, it proves that she’s just Not A Real Woman!

Kittehserf
7 years ago

The whole term “seduction community” has a nasty taste to it. They’re not about mutual pleasure, let alone about women making any moves or having any agency, except the agency to say “no”, and that’s seen not as her choice but as an inconvenience to be overcome. I can’t see these creeps as doing anything less than trying to make women have sex when we don’t want to, whether that’s by “persuasion” (no way can I believe any of them is actually charming), manipulation, coercion, or force.

I loathe them all.

lowquacks
lowquacks
7 years ago

Whenever people type PUA without the full capitalisation I momentarily parse it as the Hawai`ian word for flower. Let’s not be so hard on the Pua! I’m wearing a Pua shirt right now!

Kittehserf
7 years ago

::gasp::

lowquacks, does that mean you’re peacocking?

Also it must be nice and warm where you are, it’s freezin’ here. 😀

Quackers
Quackers
7 years ago

@Pecunium

I heard about that too. It also doesn’t work on “self aware” women.

No wonder these guys hate educated women with rights.

Not that non-educated or women who don’t know about game deserve it anymore.

Kristine
Kristine
7 years ago

Well, Ken Hoinsky is at least half-way there. Reading his words and realizing they sound like rape advice is getting closer to reading his words and realizing they ARE rape advice. And he’s shown a willingness to listen.

So hurrah for good news!

lowquacks
lowquacks
7 years ago

@Kittehs

I don’t really feel the cold these days. It’s a gloomy Aussie winter day but NSW winters aren’t really winters.

I do have an Indonesian batik shirt that depicts two peacocks displaying to each other! Granted, it’s abstract/stylised enough that I had the thing for a few months before realising that, but great piece of wearable art. All matched across the placket and the three pockets (left breast and two cabana pockets) and with long sleeves and sumptuous fabric and gold threads and that. Very Nelson Mandela.

katz
7 years ago

Am I the last to notice that there’s a new Pierre?

That’s not mine, it’s by Augochlorella. And it is indeed fabulous.

pillowinhell
pillowinhell
7 years ago

hoo boy is that guy in for a few shit fits when he realizes/gets pointedly told that his problems with the book is significantly greater than a few poorly chosen words.

I’ll raise my glass to whomever is in charge of getting this dipshit straightened out.

As for the first post on the reformed MRA… its strikes me as a post demanding cookies because he realized people other than straight white male are human? And all the readers are just supposed to be amazed that this self proclaimed intellectual giant was capable of doing so little? Really >.<

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
7 years ago

I have a parliamentary inquiry and I want to appeal the point of order to the chair!

Some of the most frustrating, rules-of-order bullshit tactics being pulled to stop the anti-choice law in Texas. I love it.

pecunium
7 years ago

What sucks is this already a “special session” to deal with the fact that people managed to run out the clock on this shit once already.

katz
7 years ago

On the subject of less shitty politics, anyone excited about the Prop 8/DOMA rulings tomorrow? It’s unlikely to be a huge win, but it’s virtually guaranteed to be a minor win (which is to say, the odds that the court will make a broad ruling that laws like Prop 8 are always legal are very low).

Kittehserf
7 years ago

lowquacks – cool shirts!

Funny thing with the cold: last night, despite it being cold (prolly near freezing) I was too hot to keep the quilt on. It wasn’t me having hot flushes or anything, either.

This morning I’m walking to the train and a woman from down the street, who I’ve never spoken to before, is leaving at the same time. She says what a weird night it was and how she kept getting hot, and we puzzled over that for a bit.

Then she mentioned she has an 8kg cat sharing the bed with her. No need to guess what we talked about after that. 😛

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
7 years ago

@Pillowinhell I think these can serve a few (couple) good purposes. They may help motivate people to continue their mockery/advocacy in the face of the MRA bullshit. The stories may help pull in the people drifting away from the manosphere or who might have drifted in.

Just because cookies may come, doesn’t mean the motives are cookies. The MRAs are cynical enough; let’s celebrate the victories.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Augochlorella’s awesome (as now memorialized on Pierre).

mayimoktoo
mayimoktoo
7 years ago

I don’t buy this apology. Part of “game” is figuring out what people want to hear, sincerity not required. But I will admit that there’s a small optimistic bit of my brain that hopes that he’ll actually get something out of the discussions. There’s also a small pessimistic part of my brain that thinks he’ll mostly use his new-found “empathy” to try to get laid.

Cthulhu's Intern
7 years ago

You know, I’m just wondering: Do PUAs think that “game” works on women who know about the techniques? Like, if they realize what they’re doing, it couldn’t possibly work, right?

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
7 years ago

Cthulu’s Intern Some PUA’s were saying they didn’t think it would, no? A con Game only works on marks not in on the con Game.

cloudiah
7 years ago

Due to the nature of my job, I work with a regularly rotating succession of college students, most of whom are female. I mostly hire graduate students, but a significant minority are undergrads. Lots of them report encountering PUA/”game” techniques, and I have to admit I enjoy informing them about the system. (After which they share amusing stories of the putdowns they come up with for the PUAs they encounter…) I like to think of myself as the Johnny Appleseed of anti-PUA knowledge in the western US. 😀

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
7 years ago

The Texas senate illegally passed SB5 at 12:01 am.

They also passed a restrictive voter ID law earlier this evening.

Jessay (@jessay)
7 years ago

Soooooo when feminists inform him that 80% of his book has to be scrapped will he give back the money when he gives up on rewriting it? Also curious about what the field reports were.

opium4themasses
opium4themasses
7 years ago

The party of being personally responsible for denying the rights of others, Grandstanding on Privilege. GRRR!!!

Oof. I am about to have a rough year of full-time school and work, but http://www.battlegroundtexas.com/ is looking mighty attractive now.

Sorry for derail. I know feminism and human rights should be partisan on their face.

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