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John The Other debates John The Other on MRA misogyny, loses

John Hembling: Open mouth, insert foot.
John Hembling: Open mouth, insert foot.

So the other day someone asked the Men’s Rights subreddit “Why do people think you guys hate women?”

There were a lot of ridiculous answers to that question, but one of the most ridiculous (and one of the most highly upvoted) responses came from our old friend John Hembling, the blabby Canadian videoblogger and A Voice for Men “Editor in Chief” also known for some dopey reason as John The Other. He explained:

johntheother [-37] 29 points 3 days ago (36|7)  They dont actually think we hate women. The accusation is a derailing tactic, designed to push the topic towards a defensive posture, and requiring proof from us (MRAs) that "hatred of women" is a false claim.  When used, it takes the discussion away from real issues such as suicide rates, homelessness, infant genital mutilation and so on.  It's very very effective, because it plays on the fact that almost all men, including MRAs are basically decent. And the social stigma of a public perception of hatred of women is painful. To overcome this tactic, it is necessary to discard a self image relying on consensus approval. Tough to do because we are social animals. But to disarm the attack of "you hate women" it's necessary to develop a strong self identity which takes no account of consensus conferral of approval. Be the "bad man", and let only your own internal compas of right and wrong guide you.

Really, John? Because I have something like 1200 posts on this blog here that would seem to suggest that, no, a lot of MRAs (and PUAs and MGOTWers) really, honestly, sincerely, and sometimes even proudly, hate women. (Ok, a certain percentage of my posts are actually about kitties, but still, I invite you to spend a month or so going through the archives, John; you may learn a thing or two.)

But, actually, there’s no need to take my word on the subject. Because if you really want to know why so many people think MRAs hate women, I invite you to take a look at and a listen to this video by a prominent MRA. Seems pretty obvious that this guy hates women, wouldn’t you agree?

Oh, by the way, this guy is you. [TRIGGER WARNING for people who are not John Hembling and who might be disturbed by a smirking asshole literally laughing about rape. Seriously. This is bad even by his standards.]

Oh, another by the way:  Hembling complained about feminists “doxing” him long after he made the video that was excerpted here in which he gave out his name. That’s right, he put his name out in his own video, then complained that feminists were violating his privacy and basically terrorizing him by ever mentioning his name. Until he started going by his real name again.

Before I go, here’s another particularly inane contribution to the Reddit discussion:

AloysiusC 6 points 3 days ago (9|3)  Many of the female feminists have deep inferiority issues about their gender and, instead of addressing those issues, they take the easy path by blaming the world which results in them seeing misogyny literally everywhere. Not just us, but all of society. Basically anything that isn't explicitly celebrating women triggers their misogyny alarm.  There's more to it.  Because they see it as a competition between the sexes (that's what an inferiority complex requires), they cannot handle anything positive being said about men. This too is, to them, misogyny.  Meanwhile many of the male feminists also deep down believe women are inferior but they're motivated by a sense of guilt - and they project their views onto other men. They simply can't imagine a man not seeing women as lesser creatures because that's how THEY feel deep down.  Because of these motivations, there will never be a way to be an MRA without getting misogyny accusations - no matter how much we walk on eggshells.

Huh. MRAs certainly have a most unusual way of “walking on eggshells.” Indeed, to this outside observer it looks a lot less like “walking on eggshells” and more like “angry toddler having an endless stompy tantrum.”

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Gillian
7 years ago

Sorry, SittieKitty, it’s a bad “joke” from the run up to the 2012 election. After Sandra Fluke gave her testimony on contraception, the right wing freaked out (as you may or may not recall – I don’t remember offhand where you are when you aren’t sitting in my computer to talk to me!) and Foster Friess, who was a major backer of Rick (Frothy Mix) Santorum suggested that in his day, at least when they weren’t running from dinosaurs, women would hold an asprin between their knees for contraception (ie they didn’t spread their legs in the first place).

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
7 years ago

@tedthefed:

You’re probably closest with the lack of empathy.

But I think it’s also mainly a case of attitude stagnation. In order to think sexism is a problem, you have to acknowledge it exists in the first place. If they don’t acknowledge that it’s even a thing, there’s a much more hidden cognitive dissonance, no real impetus to change their opinion because they know that they have the right one.

So if someone says “You hate men!” it’s not a statement of subjective truth, but some callous little lie – because it’s how they perceive the world, and how they would normally act in the same situation (“You just hate men!”)

It’s like the argument people make when they go “No one ever *really* does anything for a selfness reason, there’s always some ulterior motive”. It’s how they operate, generally, and how they see the world at that time, so of course everyone else does too.

This is a good example, from earlier

In public, well-adjusted people may mouth the PC platitudes that feminists and doughboys relentlessly cudgel into squishy groupthink minds, but in private the cool people generally shun the orc hordes and leave them to mingle with their own emotionally and often physically disfigured kind.

“I feel that way! So I know everyone does too! And if you don’t, you’re obvious lying, because I know I’m right! Also you’re ugly!”

So… Universalizing experience + lack of empathy + arrogance = That.

katz
7 years ago

It’s like the argument people make when they go “No one ever *really* does anything for a selfness reason, there’s always some ulterior motive”. It’s how they operate, generally, and how they see the world at that time, so of course everyone else does too.

Ugh, I fuckin’ hate psychological egoism. And, for that matter, all theories that presuppose that you know what’s going on in other people’s minds better than they do.

Fibinachi
Fibinachi
7 years ago

Eh, my bad. Sorry.

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
7 years ago

Ah, thanks for the explanation! It makes a lot more sense now.

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

But I think it’s also mainly a case of attitude stagnation. In order to think sexism is a problem, you have to acknowledge it exists in the first place. If they don’t acknowledge that it’s even a thing, there’s a much more hidden cognitive dissonance, no real impetus to change their opinion because they know that they have the right one.

A lot of them are of the opinion that sexism no longer exists as long as women can vote. Whatever country someone is in, just find out when women got the vote and that’s when sexism ended there. So when feminists talk about sexism, they’re like “What sexism? That’s fixed in your country, so don’t whine” or they say that sexism exists, but only against men, never against women.

Falconer
7 years ago

Hey, which of our trolls was it who was helping the NSA decrypt the Voynich Manuscript? Was that Diogenes?

Looks like they’re getting along fine without his help.

Ally S
7 years ago

katz, if you loathe psychological altruism and want to see an impressive (and very, very heavy) philosophical argument for the existence of altruism, I highly recommend The Possibility of Altruism by Thomas Nagel. If you’re a philosophy fan like me, you won’t regret it.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Ugh, I fuckin’ hate psychological egoism. And, for that matter, all theories that presuppose that you know what’s going on in other people’s minds better than they do.”

Spot! That! Fallacy!

Would you like Mind Projection Fallacy for $200 or Psychologist’s Fallacy for $400?

Mind projection fallacy – when one considers the way he sees the world as the way the world really is.

Psychologist’s fallacy – an observer presupposes the objectivity of his own perspective when analyzing a behavioral event.

Veronicas
Veronicas
7 years ago

wooooooow, my heart died a bit after that video.

and QUESTION everybody, do that man have a girlfriend? And does the founder of AVfm have one, I’m just corious, ok thnx bye.

pecunium
7 years ago

Gillian: I’m not sure what’s going on. She made reference to “We have rape kits, and if it’s five months later the baby all developed and stuff” (I paraphrase, a bit).

jefrir
jefrir
7 years ago

Though, is plan-b offered? Can we maybe do that?

Offering it is standard in the UK. I wouldn’t be massively surprised to learn that it isn’t in Texas, though.

elyrayldin
elyrayldin
7 years ago

Sittiekitty, your brain bleach made me cry. I watched all 10 minutes of the great dane and his kitty friend, and I was bawling at the end – but it took my mind off JTO and his horrifying laugh!

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

First, a link. http://www.newser.com/article/da746gco2/texas-house-republicans-pass-new-abortion-restrictions-democrats-seek-delay-of-senate-vote.html

Second, the money quote —

“In the emergency room they have what’s called rape kits where a woman can get cleaned out,” she said, comparing the procedure to an abortion. “The woman had five months to make that decision, at this point we are looking at a baby that is very far along in its development.”

The ignorance, it burns.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Of course it’s offered in the UK, you guys don’t consider health care to be a priviledge.

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
7 years ago

Oh no! I didn’t mean to make you cry 🙁

Replacement?

dsfrogs
dsfrogs
7 years ago

I think that in most cases it’s really simple. You just know that sexism is BAD, and you know that you’re good, so that can’t be true!

Dvärghundspossen
7 years ago

Ugh, I fuckin’ hate psychological egoism. And, for that matter, all theories that presuppose that you know what’s going on in other people’s minds better than they do.

Fun challenge: Try to come up with a definition of “egoism” according to which universal egoism becomes a simultaneously plausible and interesting thesis.

Failed attempt one: Define egoism as striving for more money/sex/fame/things etc. With such a narrow definition, universal egoism is pretty obviously false. Even if you grant that people’s striving for more money/sex/fame/things etc is sometimes subconscious rather than conscious, it’s not plausible. People sometimes (heck, often) have other goals.

Failed attempt two: Define egoism as serving your own interests – and then define “interests” in such a wide way that universal peace counts as “my interest” if I’m all for universal peace, and dying for a cause is “my interest” if I choose to die for a cause and so on. With such a wide definition, yeah, obviously universal egoism is true, but by depriving the word “egoism” of basically all content you’ve made the thesis trivial.

Failed attempt three: Define egoism as striving for happiness. Next step in the argument: Claim that if I’m all for universal peace and manage to make peace on Earth, I’m gonna be happy. Third step in the argument: That proves that happiness rather than peace was my goal all along.
First problem with this line of argument: The fact that I become happy after achieving peace on Earth does no more prove that happiness was my actual goal than the fact that I become sweaty through exercise prove that sweat (rather than, say, health and strength) prove that sweat was my actual exercising goal.
The second problem with this attempt is that unless I was seriously interested in peace for its own sake, I wouldn’t have become happy by making peace.
A person who’s only interest was to become happy, but didn’t care for anything else, couldn’t ever become happy. Or possibly zie could become happy by doing something that directly affects brain chemicals, like taking certain drugs. But zie wouldn’t become happy by performing various activities unless zie had a previous interest in these activities for their own sake. The person described under “failed attempt one” could become happy by acquiring money/sex/fame/things etc if zie was previously greedy/ambitious/horny etc, and the person described under “failed attempt two” could become happy by making peace if zie was previously altruistic, but nobody whose sole interest was zir own happiness could ever become happy, except possibly by doing some kind of happiness drugs.

So, yeah. Fun challenge for the believer in universal egoism!

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Irrelevant factoid — the drug in failed attempt 3 is MDMA and you aren’t very useful when commenting on how amazingly white the walls are and how beautiful that is. So practically speaking, still a failed attempt.

*goes back to data* y’all are a bunch of anarchists the lot of you!

guffaw-ferrets
guffaw-ferrets
7 years ago

Dvärghundspossen: that challenge is beautiful. My pops should read it — he and my stepmom are big into a New Agey “The Secret”/law-of-attraction mindset wherein they believe “selfishness” as a virtue and broadly define “selfishness” as “acting in one’s own self-interest to achieve one’s goals and not doing things that would detract from or act against one’s own self-interest.” And they believe that, basically, everyone wants simply to be happy, so all of our hobbies and passions are simply in service to that goal.

But he also believes that any attempts to converse about or debate these principles are proof of “negativity” encroaching, since apparently we’ve all been trained (by whatever their equivalent is to the Devil, since this is after all a religion to its devotees) to thwart ourselves through “bad thoughts” and must open our psychic channels/cleanse our chi to overcome this tendency.

Suffice to say he comes from a very different financial class than I do (in part because he paid child support maybe twice in eighteen years and spent the withheld money exclusively on his own self-interests, which did not include “raising his child”; he considers himself to be “flamingly liberal”, but the MRA would love him). And suffice to say this is one of the many, many reasons I am extremely hesitant to let him into my life.

guffaw-ferrets
guffaw-ferrets
7 years ago

Forgive numerous typos there. Also MDMA is one hell of a drug. It works like no other antidepressant therapy I’ve ever tried (except perhaps psilocybin [sp?]).

katz
7 years ago

And suffice to say this is one of the many, many reasons I am extremely hesitant to let him into my life.

Let him into your life, but constantly do annoying/mean things like intentionally stepping on his feet, and then say “It was in my self-interest.”

(Disclaimer: Don’t actually do this.)

Ally S
7 years ago

My mom and my older siblings did ayahuasca once. Apparently my sister was taken to hell during her trip and then shown what her body looks like without her soul. My mom was crying constantly. And my brother was told that he’s pretty much flawless.

They also threw up profusely and had loose stool.

I’m still kind of tempted to try it, but then I think about the physical side effects.

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
7 years ago

I do not think the Texas representative was speaking from ignorance, any more than I think the pregnancy crisis so called clinics staff are speaking from ignorance. If just one woman believes her lies and fails to request emergency contraception because she thinks the rape kit prevents pregnancy the liars will have achieved their goal.
I think it intentional, cynical, and malicious.

Ally S
7 years ago

@Quantum

And yet you’ll never see Futrelle point out the many tu quoques, question beggings, and other fallacious bullshit that feminist pundits like Marcotte come out with on a daily basis.

This website isn’t about feminists, so I’m afraid that your statement is ridiculous. Also, it’s amazing how predictable people like you are.

Ally S
7 years ago

Also, we do know that not all feminists are pleasant people. Nor do we agree with all of them. Telling us that fact doesn’t make you interesting or insightful.

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 years ago

Hey Dude,

did you ever think about the reasons why SOME these men hate women?
The truth is, many have had bad experiences with women, be it their mothers, or girlfriends, wifes or co-workers etc.

Hey Dude,

Having bad experiences with someone doesn’t actually justify misogyny. Not to mention a bunch of those “bad experiences” end up being things like “I bought my coworker a pop and then she didn’t have sex with me” or “my ex-wife wasn’t happy with our relationship and so she sought a divorce” or “my daughters don’t blindly do everything I tell them to.”

thebewilderness
thebewilderness
7 years ago

People who post on blogs asking why the blogger does what they want to do instead of what the poster wants them to do reveals a great deal more about themselves than they perhaps realize.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

Sean R. Moorhead — please accept this Welcome Package as a bribe to get you to stay!

Re: MDMA — don’t buy the cheap stuff (or at clubs, that shit’s way over priced). DO NOT do it if you’re on, or where recently on, an SSRI (or probably most anti-depressants)…like, potentially fatal idea, serotonin syndrome is bad bad beans. You normal people who aren’t used to being depressed may feel a bit shitty for a couple of days after while the serotonin you just got a massive dose of replinishs.

And like all hallucinogens, you probably want a responsible, not tripping, babysitter so you don’t try anything stupid. Cooking with no sense of time is a bad idea. (Someone experienced in the fine art of not being dumb while tripping also works.)

Mushrooms…I’ll pass. The vomiting part isn’t worth the potential for a bad trip. Been there, done that.

MDMA’s being researched as a treatment for PTSD btw. Cuz nothing could possibly be wrong with the world, including the shit that really truly is.

I think that’d the full psychonaut disclaimer… (yes, I’ve done a lot of hallucinogens)

Ally S
7 years ago

Hey Dude,

did you ever think about the reasons why SOME these men hate women?
The truth is, many have had bad experiences with women, be it their mothers, or girlfriends, wifes or co-workers etc.

Now, i am not asking you to sympathize with their goals or ideology because of this fact.
But i tell you this, without a bit of empathy from feminists (or other mens organisations), these men will keep hating women. They will keep doing what they are doing.

I ask you this: Why are only mens rights activists concerned with the issues of these men? Why are there no alternatives?

Think about it. These people are not neccesarly evil.

Oh look, another attack on a straw feminist.

You get a U for unoriginal.

auggziliary
auggziliary
7 years ago

This is off topic/personal issues question, so feel free to ignore…
(I thought I’d ask here since it seems like there are a few people here who have depression and other disorders.)

One of my close friends has clinical depression, severely. He recently got this “neurodocrine” test from his chiropractor. It’s supposed to test levels of emotional hormones by measuring them in their urine and saliva. He got his results back with basically no “happiness” hormones, so they’re giving him some little supplements of them so his body can supposedly learn to make them.
So far, he thinks they’re working…
I asked my therapist/doctor(she is both, she has a phd but I forgot what it’s called, I know she was a doctor and she then went to grad school for psychological medicine but idk the name… My point is she knows what she’s talking about). Well she said its basically a complete scam, since the levels of serotonin(and other “happy” hormones) in the body don’t determine depression, its just how well your brain can access them. Also you can’t measure that stuff in a days worth of urine and saliva anyways. She said his success was just placebo…

So… Would it be rude for me to tell him that its a complete scam, and that his happiness is just placebo, and that he shouldn’t get mental meds from a chiropractor?

TL;DR: friend has depression and fell for an expensive scam to cure it. Should I tell him it’s a scam, or would that make me kind of a douche?

Ally S
7 years ago

@Argenti

And like all hallucinogens, you probably want a responsible, not tripping, babysitter so you don’t try anything stupid. Cooking with no sense of time is a bad idea. (Someone experienced in the fine art of not being dumb while tripping also works.)

I think that advice should apply to anyone who is inexperienced with drugs, even ones that aren’t as powerful. One time I passed out after getting high on cannabis (I know, right?) simply because I was very dehydrated beforehand. I’m very grateful that my step-dad was there for me because I would have fallen and hit the ground pretty hard. It was also really scary when it happened, and he was there to comfort me (I mean, I felt like I was going to collapse any second and go to the emergency room. The various hallucinations only made matters worse)

auggziliary
auggziliary
7 years ago

Also, why are we talking about MDMA? I can’t find the comment anywhere.

Anyways, be careful with it (that’s all I can really say since idk the comment).

Ally S
7 years ago

Oh, you said “all hallucinogens.” My bad. I guess in my post I’m talking about psychoactive drugs as well, not just hallucinogens. (Some kinds of weed are hallucinogenic, but w/e)

auggziliary
auggziliary
7 years ago

Now I want weed….
.
.
.
Now I want some pretzels.

freemage
freemage
7 years ago

Energomash:

Hey Dude,

did you ever think about the reasons why SOME these men hate women?
The truth is, many have had bad experiences with women, be it their mothers, or girlfriends, wifes or co-workers etc.

Now, i am not asking you to sympathize with their goals or ideology because of this fact.
But i tell you this, without a bit of empathy from feminists (or other mens organisations), these men will keep hating women. They will keep doing what they are doing.

I ask you this: Why are only mens rights activists concerned with the issues of these men? Why are there no alternatives?

Think about it. These people are not neccesarly evil.

Sure, some people develop their irrational prejudices because of their assumption that a prior bad experience was caused by an irrelevant trait. A friend from high school got mugged in college; since his mugger was black, he decided that all black people were criminals.

The inability of these men to realize that there is some factor other than gender which might account for their experiences is, frankly, their problem. As for why no one else is taking up their cause….

1: In many cases, there’s no ’cause’ to take up. A man who has sired a child out of wedlock, and then wants to leave it up to the welfare system to pay for that child’s well-being rather than paying child support is a cretin, and his ‘issue’ is something I have no problem ignoring.

2: In those cases where there IS a societal problem that unfairly works against men, there usually ARE groups working to eliminate those issues–including many feminist groups. Sometimes this is pretty direct–eliminating workplace discrimination would open up many ‘nurturing’ jobs that currently are heavily woman-dominated to men, in part by ensuring the jobs were paid proportional to the cost of qualification. Other times, it’s less direct–cosmetic male infant circumcision (that is, circumcision that occurs without a precipitating medical need) is a minor issue, but it’s still one that would actually be addressed by creating a stronger underlying support for the idea of personal bodily autonomy–that is to say, if we can advance the feminist cause of, “A person should have control over their own body,” then CMIC becomes a non-issue, because obviously the infant can’t consent to it.

(See also: My above comment about how feminism is, in fact, applied humanism.)

Next up: We’re not saying they’re ‘evil’, and certainly not ‘necessarily evil’. Some of them might be, depending on the definition of the term we’re using, of course. But most are, in fact, normal people with bad ideas in their heads. However, patting them on the back and saying that those ideas are okay and understandable and reasonable is NOT going to get them to stop holding those ideas.

****

Quantum’s drive-by comment, of course, is a big ol’ ball of Citation Needed.

Argenti Aertheri
7 years ago

“Also, why are we talking about MDMA? I can’t find the comment anywhere.”

I mentioned it as the happy drug for Dvärghundspossen’s comment, and then guffaw-ferrets commented, so I dropped my usual disclaimer.

auggziliary — how expensive and does he have insurance? That is, would psych meds be cheaper? If so, I’d word it that way. If not…the placebo effect is one hell of a thing.

pecunium
7 years ago

Energomash: I ask you this: Why are only mens rights activists concerned with the issues of these men? Why are there no alternatives?

But you are wrong. Feminists do care about these things. What the MRM demands, however isn’t that women (sorry, “females”) care about them, or work to help them. It’s that women abandon any attempt to redress present structural inequities to women; until these dudes have happy boners, are rich, not required to be accountable for what they do with their dicks, etc.

So long as women (and the law, and other men’s groups) insist on say women deserved to be treated as well as men do, these dudes will hate women.

Quantum: And yet you’ll never see Futrelle point out the many tu quoques, question beggings, and other fallacious bullshit that feminist pundits like Marcotte come out with on a daily basis.

Daily… that means I expect to see lots of them.

Kittehserf
7 years ago

cloudiah –

Thanks to you guys, and particularly Kittehs, this is now the only thing I can think of when the AVfMers/misters start in on their whining.

MARMOTS’ RIGHTS!

SittieKitty, thank you for those videos. I just watched the Honey and Lemon one (and was so sad that Lemon crossed over so young – I’d expected Honey would have, because GDs have such short lives, which would have been sad enough. But it was delightful to watch those two playing!

auggziliary
auggziliary
7 years ago

Argenti, the neuronendocrine thing is expensive, so I don’t think it’s a money issue…

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
7 years ago

*waves hand* oooh! Me me! I work actively against male circumcision and have stats/medical stuff to back up that it’s worse if you do it than if you don’t if there is no underlying medical need for it. (I work with neonates. I’m pretty frank with clients about how it’s not a very good thing to do.)

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
7 years ago

But i tell you this, without a bit of empathy from feminists (or other mens organisations), these men will keep hating women. They will keep doing what they are doing.

And they can keep on keeping on for all I care. They hate women. So what? That’s their problem, not feminists’ problem.

I ask you this: Why are only mens rights activists concerned with the issues of these men? Why are there no alternatives?

If we are talking about a real problem, like homelessness, poverty, suicide, or the dysfunctional criminal justice system, then yes, people want to help men, women, and everyone of every gender affected by them. If we are talking about a phony problem like “friendzoning” or “paper abortions”, then real activists aren’t on board.

@Quantum, this is David’s blog. He can write about whatever he wants. If you want a blog where you can whine about feminists, then make your own blog. Ta da, problem solved.

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
7 years ago

You’re welcome Kitteh! I always have brain bleach, and a lot of it, and I’m happy to share. Honestly, I watched almost to the end of that video without realizing that it was a memorial video, despite the fact that it says so at the beginning. I think my judgement is being impaired by a lack of sleep, because I can’t believe I didn’t notice until someone pointed it out and I had to go back and look…

Kittehserf
7 years ago

That Voynich article is pretty interesting, and now I’m convinced it was written by space aliens, or possibly a hoax, or something else entirely. (I’m covering all my bases here.) My favorite totally out-of-context quote:

All wrong. It was written by the Furrinati on the instructions of the Great Furred Ones, to mess with humans’ minds.

On sexists recognising/denying they’re sexists – do these guys even think sexism is wrong? I don’t think they do. I think any denials are just a cover, because saying outright they’re sexists isn’t generally acceptable, any more than declaring oneself a racist is. Of course it goes further than sexism with them; there’s “benevolent” or “benign” sexism, but there’s nothing benevolent or benign about them: they are misogynists. They want rape to be not a crime, they want women to be their property, and they want to punish us for existing.

MaudeLL
7 years ago

@Sean
Welcome! Great comment.

[TW – sexual harassment]

@Energomash
Yes, I have spent many sleepless nights wondering if I had ‘made’ new MRAs by not being pleasant enough. Whether it was something wrong I did or not. For example, I worked in a cafe when I was 18 and a middle aged customer would always harass me and tell me how he thought my tits were really his type, and try to fondle me. Everyday. My boss told me I should expect that, that he hired young women to attract men as customers. He found my e-mail at some point, and asked how much I would accept for sex. I was pissed off (I had not given him my information) and I told him that he’d better not come back to the cafe. He did, and it was to call me a skank and a whore. I banned him and personally escorted him out, even though my boss was pissed off at me for making him lose $2 a day.

Yes, I actually spent a lot of time wondering if I’d made that man become an MRA/woman-hater because I banned him, and because I looked puzzled when he called me a whore for not accepting his money for sex. I spent a lot of time worrying about so many ridiculous interactions.
(Fun fact – that cafe was the same place where JtO got threatened by exact-wielding feminists. Bastion of savoury people.)

I don’t think I’m alone. I think many women think this way. Similarly, as a Native American, I’ve spent many nights wondering if I made people racist. All the fucking time. Just for being there. For getting a job or for failing at something. Does that warrant racism?

Daphne
Daphne
7 years ago

How are suicide rate, homelessness and infant genital mutilation (and I would guess he meant male suicide, male homelessness and male genital mutilation) linked to feminism? *crickets* Then why are they spending all of their time whining about ‘feminists’ (in brackets because for them, any woman who does something they don’t approve of is a feminist and a woman who makes a false rape accusation is automatically a feminist even if one has nothing to do whatsoever with the other). While he says that pointing his misogyny is a derail from those issues, I think it is the other way around in that he mentioning those issues is a derail from the fact that his ‘movement’ is based on attacking ‘feminists’.

Indeed, when they say they don’t hate women, they probably believe themselves as they think that just hating those who don’t limit themselves to their womanly duty of catering to men’s sexual and domestic needs, and those who complain when men justifiably punish them for stepping out of their male-prescribed role, is not hating women; actually, they do love ‘real’ women.

guffaw-ferrets
guffaw-ferrets
7 years ago

Argenti: psychonaut fistbump!
I’ve had great experiences with mushrooms as they relate to PTSD, because I’m one of the apparently few people who doesn’t get sick from eating them — but again, everyone is different and experiments should be taken under supervision if at all.

katz: Hahaha, that is basically what I do, except symbolically. It’s quite a good emotional release.

Along those lines: when female people have had bad bad experiences with male people (like being economically controlled/manipulated, assaulted, stalked, harassed, emotionally abused, gaslit, etc), isn’t it funny how we’re supposed to be ever so forgiving — even to other male people who share our abusers’ mindsets — or else we are instantly labeled “manhaters”?

But male people can have anywhere from a kind-of-sort-of-inconvenient or mildly-unpleasant one-off interactions with female people, generalize from there that all women are The Borg with no higher thinking processes other than the brainstem and should ergo be treated like cattle or worse, and they get to ARGUE (with some other male people and arguably overarching society as a whole agreeing with them!) that they don’t *really* hate women?

Hilarious, isn’t it. Preaching to the choir.

augzillary: lol!

Sean R. Moorhead
Sean R. Moorhead
7 years ago

Sean R. Moorhead — please accept this Welcome Package as a bribe to get you to stay!

Thank you very much, although you don’t have to bribe me (and in fact, I feel as though I should be paying all of you for the hours of entertainment and education).

On the whole ‘humanism vs. feminism’ argument, my new go-to is to reply, “Feminism is humanism when applied to issues of sexism; likewise, anti-racism is humanism applied to issues of race, and so on. So when I say I’m a feminist, I’m already declaring myself a humanist, to anyone who happens to regard women as human beings. Does that include you?”

Yesyesyesyesyes.

I ask you this: Why are only mens rights activists concerned with the issues of these men? Why are there no alternatives?

The implication that feminists don’t care about men’s issues is perplexing to me on a number of levels.

First, although I agree that sympathy cooperation should be the highest goal of any social movement, don’t you think it’s reasonable for people to have particular areas of focus? Surely we don’t require that Black activists acknowledge White people’s problems, or that LGBTQ activists add to every argument in favor of gay rights that they also support straight rights?

Second, even though it isn’t their primary goal, the current generation of feminists has actually been very active in promoting the ideas that patriarchy is just as harmful to men as to women and that people who are privileged in some respects can be disadvantaged in others (i.e., white gay men), and in criticizing the problems with older schools of feminism, like transphobia in the Second Wave. Frankly, I think that feminism has been far more consistent in acknowledging men’s problems than the self-styled men’s rights movement has been in acknowledging that women have anything to complain about at all.

Third, in response to the suggestion that there are no alternatives for men — I can think of a couple of institutions that are very active in promoting men’s interests. There’s a little group called the Congress of the United States of America, for example.

I don’t deny that there are some areas in which women have an advantage over men, but on balance, have those disadvantages ever really kept us back as a sex? I mean, one of the examples of systematic misandry that MRAs always bring up is the fact that men are more likely than women to be suspected of having a predatory interest in children…and yet there are still a lot of men who work with children (some of whom, like Jimmy Saville, continued to work with children after it became known that they were predators), so to all appearances that disadvantage isn’t very crippling.