Categories
feminism misogyny MRA PUA racism rape rape culture

From the mouths of trolls: Rape is unneccessary if you’ve got “game.”

bad_reason

So my Mighty White of You post — about the demographics of the Men’s Rights subreddit — drew the attention of Obsidian, a longtime Manosphere blogger who has been described by some of his comrades as “the Blackest Man of the Manosphere” (not that this is much of an accomplishment in that lily-white world). He stuck around for some not-terribly productive discussions of race and feminism, pickup artistry, and I can’t remember the rest because I just sort of stopped caring after a while.

But there was one thing he said — a passing remark in a long comment — that stood out to some of the commenters here, and which I thought was revealing enough to warrant highlighting in a post:

I don’t support rape for a very simple reason – because it’s not necessary. A Man with Game doesn’t need to rape anyone.

That … is not a good reason to “not support” rape.

Really, that’s probably the worst reason to “not support” rape besides “I don’t have enough time in my busy schedule to rape anyone today” or “I might muss up my new suit raping someone.”

Do you really need to search for reasons to “not support” rape beyond, you know, the idea that violating other people for your own selfish pleasure is wrong?

PUAs: Even the ones who aren’t directly advocating sexual assault have some pretty fucked up ideas about rape.

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auggziliary
auggziliary
8 years ago

Is there a way to make a poll so you have to have been a member for at least a week to vote? That way there’s less chance of some MRAS making 83 accounts and messing up the results.

katz
8 years ago

O: There *is* the RSS feed option…

Traffic troll!

Aaliyah
8 years ago

O: I just made a remark in passing, is all; nothing calculated, or some “shadow” motive, or anything like that. I wasn’t looking to get everyone in an uproar, etc. My problem is, WHY are so many people here, many of whom have little if anything to do with PUAs and the like (several commenters have said they’re married), are so deadset on believing ALL PUAs are rapists and so forth? Isn’t that kind of thinking the very same kinds of stereotypical mindset that pervades misogyny, racism, and so forth – that “all” of anything or anyone, are thus and so?

I wasn’t implying that you were being shady by making that remark. I was just pointing out that your highly likely reason for making that remark “in passing” is that you were expressing an actual belief of yours, not attempting to troll us.

As for why we think PUAs are sexual aggressors, that’s because we read the shit they say. And quite a bit of it is either highly manipulative or pro-rape (and those two tend to go hand-in-hand).

O: I have never set out to convince anyone. I just present the facts as best I have them, and leave it at that.

If you didn’t intend to convince anyone about anything in that thread, you wouldn’t have even tried to address our points (not that you made any good arguments in the first place, but at least you responded to us with the clear motive of clearing up misunderstanding). If you’re going to backpedal AGAIN, I suggest that you at least try to make it look convincing.

O: I was speaking to the notion or idea that guys who practice Game are rapists. I was challenging that notion or idea.

That doesn’t change the expressed meaning of your statement. At the very least, it doesn’t change the implied idea that men with “Game” don’t support rape simply because they don’t “need” to.

In any case, your motive was apparently to defend PUAs of the charge of advocating rape. If you actually wanted to do that convincingly, surely you would have also tried to make them look as though they are also averse to the very idea of being contingently opposed to rape. In other words, you wouldn’t have made a statement that, at least on the surface, sounds like PUAs only refrain from rape because they don’t find it to be necessary.

O: I’m an MRA who believes, in fact knows, that Women are fully human.

Why is it so very hard for you to grok that?

O.

Because you’re a very typical MRA and because you’ve already shown your misogyny.

emmawolf
8 years ago

LOL* at the use of the term “support.” Like it’s a legitimate choice, like how some people only want to buy local produce but others don’t mind going to the grocery store. I don’t support my local farmers’ market for one simple reason: it’s not necessary. I can get all my apples at Super Walmart.

*I’m laughing to keep myself from crying

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

“Is there a way to make a poll so you have to have been a member for at least a week to vote? That way there’s less chance of some MRAS making 83 accounts and messing up the results.”

1) no
2) I turned cookies on
3) I want lurkers to be able to do it, in part to see if they have a different demographic we’re scaring off

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

“OF, any chance you could comment on your apparent lies about Pew’s head of household survey?”

O: Certainly; I was under the impression that the study had indicated that a simple majority of American households have Women as the breadwinners; it was brought to my attention that the actual figure would be 40%.

If I am wrong about that, I apologize.

No, there’s no “if” there Sparky, nor is there a “would be”. You are wrong. All of your assertions about women and wealth have been completely contrary to the facts. In light of this new information, would you care to revise your speculations about women, especially Black women?

martindufresne
martindufresne
8 years ago

Let the “game wardens” rake over hot coals the big (mouth) game hunters such as this! Did you read about the dork who got 16000$ to write a “Seduction Manual” through the KICKSTARTER system? They (finally) apologized for including his project (and promise to give $25000 to RAINN) but he got the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!! http://www.technewsdaily.com/18408-kickstarter-apology-seduction-manual.html

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

OF is kinda reminding me of the JWs who used to come and talk with me. They were telling me that the “fact” that only humans have complex emotions is proof that we were created by God.

When I pointed out that many non-human animals have complex emotions, even up to grieving rituals involving long-dead conspecifics, they responded “Well, the fact that animals have all these complex emotions just proves that God must have created them and us!”

They didn’t come back after that day. 🙁

Aaliyah
8 years ago

@martindufresne

Yeah, it’s awful. In case you missed it, there’s a Man Boobz entry on that: http://manboobz.com/2013/06/21/a-sexual-assault-how-to-by-a-sleazeball-redditor-thanks-kickstarter/

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@Aaliyah:
“I wasn’t implying that you were being shady by making that remark. I was just pointing out that your highly likely reason for making that remark “in passing” is that you were expressing an actual belief of yours, not attempting to troll us.”

O: But that’s just it – it’s not a belief of mine, and there is nothing in my life that aligns with such a belief either.

“As for why we think PUAs are sexual aggressors, that’s because we read the shit they say. And quite a bit of it is either highly manipulative or pro-rape (and those two tend to go hand-in-hand).”

O: Well, to be fair, “sexually aggressive” and “rapist” are two distinct (though linked, I will definitely admit) things. Several people here have said outright, that Game is about the latter. You may be in agreement with that assessment. I am saying to you, and to everyone else here, that Game is NOT about that. And I have lots of writings of my own and others, to prove it.

I am very concerned about the misguided nature of many guys in PUA circles. Part of the reason wny I do what I do is to correct that, as best I can.

“If you didn’t intend to convince anyone about anything in that thread, you wouldn’t have even tried to address our points (not that you made any good arguments in the first place, but at least you responded to us with the clear motive of clearing up misunderstanding). If you’re going to backpedal AGAIN, I suggest that you at least try to make it look convincing.”

O: I have nothing to “backpedal” from.

“That doesn’t change the expressed meaning of your statement. At the very least, it doesn’t change the implied idea that men with “Game” don’t support rape simply because they don’t “need” to.”

O: Fair enough.

“In any case, your motive was apparently to defend PUAs of the charge of advocating rape. If you actually wanted to do that convincingly, surely you would have also tried to make them look as though they are also averse to the very idea of being contingently opposed to rape. In other words, you wouldn’t have made a statement that, at least on the surface, sounds like PUAs only refrain from rape because they don’t find it to be necessary.”

O: I’m sorry to inform you Aaliyah of the simple fact that people look out for their own interests first. I know that, for Women especially, that will sound horrible. But it doesn’t make it any less true. If a guy has the means to get the kinds of sexual relationships he wants with Women, his chances of raping them go down considerably. Not pretty, not the yearbook answer I know, but that’s the plain truth of it. Many guys out here in the lairs and so forth are NOT getting proper teaching or training; this is why I liken alot of Game writings on my part to Martial Arts, because in the hands of an irresponsible person, they really could hurt others. I discuss that more in detail here:

The Art Of Peacocking, Revisited: Style & Defence
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/133944

“Because you’re a very typical MRA and because you’ve already shown your misogyny.”

O: Whatevs. Let me ask you a question though, just for kicks:

In your view, what would an *atypical* MRA look/sound like?

O.

guffaw-ferrets
guffaw-ferrets
8 years ago

I’m your token part-Cajun (unless there is another one here, in which case you can have the token because I was raised way north of the Mason-Dixon line). Cajuns often make their coffee with chicory, which is something of an acquired taste. But Trader Joe’s sells chicory coffee for more money than its plain coffee beans, so there’s that.

For those who don’t know, the word Cajun comes from the word Acadian, referring to a region of what is now French Canada. Most of my background which is not Cajun is French Canadian, and we make our coffee not unlike gasoline. As just one example, I just drank an excellent homemade affogato that could probably take someone’s teeth off.

Meta-demographic information and coffee chat in one post: Only at Manboobz dot com.

dustydeste
dustydeste
8 years ago

Am I the only one amused by Obtuse Files’ comments being full of O faces, in addition to his need to sign all of them with another little O, despite the fact that all comments here include the nym in the heading? I just can’t help but laughing a little.

dustydeste
dustydeste
8 years ago

Mmmm affogato <3

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@Nepenthe:
“No, there’s no “if” there Sparky, nor is there a “would be”. You are wrong. All of your assertions about women and wealth have been completely contrary to the facts. In light of this new information, would you care to revise your speculations about women, especially Black women?”

O: Certainly. Where would you like to start? And, how would that change anything with regard to Roe For Men?

Please explain?

O.

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@Nepenthe:
“OF is kinda reminding me of the JWs who used to come and talk with me. They were telling me that the “fact” that only humans have complex emotions is proof that we were created by God.”

O: Hmm…

“When I pointed out that many non-human animals have complex emotions, even up to grieving rituals involving long-dead conspecifics, they responded “Well, the fact that animals have all these complex emotions just proves that God must have created them and us!””

O: I am actually in agreement with you.

“They didn’t come back after that day.”

O: I’m still here…

O.

Unimaginative
Unimaginative
8 years ago

You know, I used to be polite to people talking, and pay attention, and give feedback to indicate I was actively listening. And then I got older and kept running into people who DEMAND that kind of attention when they’re talking, who mostly were just verbally masturbating, and who would get offended if you didn’t treat their word-turds like revelations from on high. (Some women, but mostly men.) I don’t have the patience to do that anymore, and I’ve now put OF in that category.

So, no. Not subscribing to your feed. Not reading your blog. Not reading your comments. You can summarize them into 25-word bits and I’ll reconsider, but until then, I’m writing you off as a waste of time and energy, and will be completely skipping over your future comments. Ta ta.

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

Here’s another post of mine; I ask those who think otherwise:

Check The Time: Don’t Sleep On The Seven Hour Rule
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/105621

Where’s the rape? Where’s the misogyny?

Anyone?

O.

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@Unimaginative:
“You know, I used to be polite to people talking, and pay attention, and give feedback to indicate I was actively listening. And then I got older and kept running into people who DEMAND that kind of attention when they’re talking, who mostly were just verbally masturbating, and who would get offended if you didn’t treat their word-turds like revelations from on high. (Some women, but mostly men.) I don’t have the patience to do that anymore, and I’ve now put OF in that category.”

O: *shrugs*

“So, no. Not subscribing to your feed. Not reading your blog. Not reading your comments. You can summarize them into 25-word bits and I’ll reconsider, but until then, I’m writing you off as a waste of time and energy, and will be completely skipping over your future comments. Ta ta.”

O: Adios…

O.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Dustydeste — I have a variety of Hispanic ethnicities, Latin@, white, and mixed race, biracial; want my to add French Canadian and/or Cajun? French and Canadian aren’t listed, so French Canadian probably shouldn’t be either, but Cajun doesn’t really fit anywhere else does it?

BritterSweet
BritterSweet
8 years ago

I’m also a (usual) lurker who would like to participate in a survey about the demographics at Manboobz. I just wish there was a way to separate the misogynists from the non-misogynists, since anyone can say anything in most surveys, and that could mess up the accuracy of the results. For the record, I’m (your token) Asian-American female, turning 25 next week.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

BritterSweet — I’m hoping that with cookies turned on they’ll be limited to one a troll and thus the signal to noise ratio will negate them. Though honestly, it’s pretty straight forward ethnicity, gender, social class, education levels that sort of shit. The only one they could really have a wonky opinion on is which animals they prefer 🙂

(Gender is trans*, intersex and non-binary inclusive; and you’ll have a couple Asian options to pick from if you’d like to be more specific [or not, there’s just a general Asian option of course])

Aaliyah
8 years ago

“As for why we think PUAs are sexual aggressors, that’s because we read the shit they say. And quite a bit of it is either highly manipulative or pro-rape (and those two tend to go hand-in-hand).”

O: Well, to be fair, “sexually aggressive” and “rapist” are two distinct (though linked, I will definitely admit) things. Several people here have said outright, that Game is about the latter. You may be in agreement with that assessment. I am saying to you, and to everyone else here, that Game is NOT about that. And I have lots of writings of my own and others, to prove it.

I am very concerned about the misguided nature of many guys in PUA circles. Part of the reason wny I do what I do is to correct that, as best I can.

You misinterpreted what I meant by “sexual aggressors.” I’m talking about people who sexually harass, sexually assault, and/or rape people.

“If you didn’t intend to convince anyone about anything in that thread, you wouldn’t have even tried to address our points (not that you made any good arguments in the first place, but at least you responded to us with the clear motive of clearing up misunderstanding). If you’re going to backpedal AGAIN, I suggest that you at least try to make it look convincing.”

O: I have nothing to “backpedal” from.

Perhaps that’s the wrong word to use there, but in any case, your claim that you didn’t intend to convince anyone about anything is obviously false. One only needs to look at your replies in your previous thread to see why.

“That doesn’t change the expressed meaning of your statement. At the very least, it doesn’t change the implied idea that men with “Game” don’t support rape simply because they don’t “need” to.”

O: Fair enough.

That’s all you’re going to say in response to that refutation? Really?

“In any case, your motive was apparently to defend PUAs of the charge of advocating rape. If you actually wanted to do that convincingly, surely you would have also tried to make them look as though they are also averse to the very idea of being contingently opposed to rape. In other words, you wouldn’t have made a statement that, at least on the surface, sounds like PUAs only refrain from rape because they don’t find it to be necessary.”

O: I’m sorry to inform you Aaliyah of the simple fact that people look out for their own interests first. I know that, for Women especially, that will sound horrible. But it doesn’t make it any less true. If a guy has the means to get the kinds of sexual relationships he wants with Women, his chances of raping them go down considerably. Not pretty, not the yearbook answer I know, but that’s the plain truth of it. Many guys out here in the lairs and so forth are NOT getting proper teaching or training; this is why I liken alot of Game writings on my part to Martial Arts, because in the hands of an irresponsible person, they really could hurt others. I discuss that more in detail here:

The Art Of Peacocking, Revisited: Style & Defence
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/133944

“I know that, for Women especially, that will sound horrible.”

A generalization about an attitudinal aspect of all women. Nice job making yourself look non-prejudiced.

Anyway, you’re now implying that a man deprived of sexual relationships is more likely to rape than someone who isn’t. Not only is that demonstrably false, but it’s a classic example of rape apologia. Rapists don’t rape because of their need for sex; they rape because they either don’t give a shit about the other person’s feelings or they want to have power over someone else and dehumanize them.

And unfortunately, the majority of that “proper teaching or training” found among almost all PUAs is either manipulative or sexually coercive or both. Hanging around here and seeing the PUAs mentioned in the posts and the PUAs found in the comments is sufficient to see why. Oh, and that Red Pill subreddit.

BritterSweet
BritterSweet
8 years ago

This Obsidian fellow was giving tons of posts in the comments section of Dr. Nerdlove too, recently.

You know what? All the other times someone (troll or genuinely sexist/racist/ableist/etc.) would persistently post problematic stuff, while the regulars here would call him “boring,” I would feel angry but not truly bored. Obsidian’s comments have to be probably the first time I found a “troll” genuinely boring!

Aaliyah
8 years ago

This Obsidian fellow was giving tons of posts in the comments section of Dr. Nerdlove too, recently.

You know what? All the other times someone (troll or genuinely sexist/racist/ableist/etc.) would persistently post problematic stuff, while the regulars here would call him “boring,” I would feel angry but not truly bored. Obsidian’s comments have to be probably the first time I found a “troll” genuinely boring!

Clearly you weren’t around when Diogenes was here, then. =P

pecunium
8 years ago

ObFiles: Where have I “advocated” for any of this? Please explain?

As linked before, and quoted above

I have to give you points for persistence in your gaslighting attempts.

I’m an MRA who believes, in fact knows, that Women are fully human.

Why is it so very hard for you to grok that?

Because we read the rest of what you’ve written.

“So a man without game does “need” to rape people? What an asshole.”

O: I beg your pardon, that is NOT what I was saying.

More of your great talent with words. It’s exactly what you said.

I don’t support rape for a very simple reason – because it’s not necessary. A Man with Game doesn’t need to rape anyone.

historophilia
historophilia
8 years ago

“If a guy has the means to get the kinds of sexual relationships he wants with Women, his chances of raping them go down considerably.”

Obsidian that’s objectively wrong, a majority of women are raped by people that they are in sexual relationships with or have been in the past.

In fact the number is 64%. Source http://www.americanbar.org/groups/domestic_violence/resources/statistics.html
http://www.nij.gov/pubs-sum/183781.htm

In a survey of college students it was indicated that this number could in fact be as high as 84%
http://rwu.edu/campus-life/health-counseling/counseling-center/sexual-assault/rape-myths-and-fac

The idea that men rape because they don’t get enough sex is utterly false and a deeply damaging idea.

Cthulhu's Intern
8 years ago

Sorry, Aaliyah, I’d have to agree with BritterSweet. I found Diogenes more annoying than boring. Obsidian, on the other hand, is like a movie theater with no popcorn or soda by yourself playing Andy Warhol’s Empire and you can’t leave until it’s over. Except in this case I have every right to just not read his stuff but I just choose to.

Also, for the love of god, could you please use blockquotes, Obsidian?

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

@historophilia

Statistics are Misandry!

dustydeste
dustydeste
8 years ago

@Argenti Aertheri – I mean, I’m pretty lily white myself, unless you count Irish as not white (and since I’m in North America, I’ll then laugh my ass off at someone saying Irish isn’t white over here), but I wouldn’t mind doing the survey. For science!

pecunium
8 years ago

Diogenes at least had the courage of his convictions. He would try to make an actual argument, and then defend it. They were shit arguments, and he was prone to ridiculous appeals to his own authority, and putative expertise, but you could actually argue with him; to some degree.

He was also less of a one-note Johnny.

So he was less dull.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

<blockquote>

quoted bit goes here

</blockquote>

historophilia
historophilia
8 years ago

@Nepenthe 😛

Actually if you want real Misandry, the idea that large numbers of men will decide to rape if they can’t find people to have sex with them consensually is pretty much smack on the nose.

Apparently lack of sex turns men into ravening rape-beasts. Real advocates for men the MRA.

It baffles me slightly how MRA’s will simultaneously say that Feminists say that all men are rapists and that this makes them evil and then gaily trot out stuff which essentially amounts to “All men are rapists”.

BritterSweet
BritterSweet
8 years ago

Clearly you weren’t around when Diogenes was here, then. =P

I’m not so sure about that. When other trolls, including Dio, posted their crap, I would find it annoying. Sometimes to the point where I’d give my screen the middle finger. With O…there’s nothing.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Dustydeste — ehh, I’ll add it anyways, it’ll take like a minute and I’m trying to be as inclusive as possible 🙂

And just Argenti is fine.

Aaliyah
8 years ago

Perhaps I don’t remember much about Diogenes. I mostly saw him towards the end of his stay, when he just popped up randomly in threads to say stupid dull shit. Did he change over time?

BritterSweet
BritterSweet
8 years ago

@ historophilia

Feminists hate rapists. Guess who translates that into “all men.”

dustydeste
dustydeste
8 years ago

Ah, yeah, I couldn’t remember off the top of my head which bit your preferred, so I figured I was safe with the whole thing 🙂

I’m fine with just deste, myself. Not that I’ve said so before, haha, but first time for everything!

Nepenthe
Nepenthe
8 years ago

@historophilia

You would say that, because you’re a statistics-loving biotruth-denier and either a beta mangina or a *shudder* feemale. The feelings in your SOUL should be all the proof you need that Feminists are evil and the MRM is the Way.

Sorry guys. I just thought we needed a higher level of trolling in this thread.

dustydeste
dustydeste
8 years ago

Oh also, and excuse my ignorance here, but where are we to find said survey? I’m sure it’s been said, but I must have missed it.

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

Dunno about Obsidian, but I spot a unicorn here: There is no such thing as a need to rape women.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Deste — it’s not up yet, I’m still running it by anyone who wants to be a guinea pig and give me feedback. Drop me a line at my full nym at gmail is you want to give the draft version a once over!

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
8 years ago

Oh god, OF is still commenting?? He’s so boring and doesn’t say anything new… And he still hasn’t said shit about my challenge to him, which was:

A) articulate the discussions at hand specifically.

B) state a position on it and reference those assertions.

And I’m really tired of people who are all like “Oh, but I didn’t *literally* say that”. It’s a bullshit weasel excuse to get out of being accused of saying shitty things. OF, you are being a weasel, which is less appealing than it even sounds. Words mean things, and they imply things. Much of what is said in conversation isn’t directly said, it’s inferred by word choices. People utilise language in far more ways than just a literal interpretation of the letters. So no, you likely did not say “I think people should rape!” (I don’t know because I’m not wasting my time reading your shit), but as Fibonnachi pointed out, you tacitly approved of it.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

They didn’t come back after that day.”

O: I’m still here…

Unfuckingfortunately for all of us, yes you are.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Freitag! Been missing that old school cat of yours! Shall we derail about Clara?

guffaw-ferrets
guffaw-ferrets
8 years ago

Argenti: I’m the Cajun. I doubt you’ll have many people checking that box, but if you want to add it as a category — you’re right, it doesn’t really go anywhere else!

I guess it could fall under the “mixed race” category, but I’d personally feel a little odd selecting that since I was raised by white people (and am most often mistaken for a light-skinned Latina if anything; I look very French, just with olive skin and very dark hair).

dustydeste: did I misread, or are you one of us too??

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

Argenti, sorry to say that I don’t get BBC America and haven’t seen any of the new eps with Clara. 🙁 But hopefully they will come to PBS in good time!

guffaw-ferrets
guffaw-ferrets
8 years ago

PS: the affogato was delicious.
For those who don’t like dairy, the best budget creamer I’ve ever tried was Trader Joe’s brand, so if you have a store in your area you may want to try it out. I put some of that in the affogato, with the fresh-cream ice cream, since I’m sort of a lush sometimes.

In case it’s not obvious, I can’t talk about rape right now. At some point the switch in my brain just flips, my eyes glaze over, I start finding everything kind of absurdly funny, and I try to live my life like a regular person who doesn’t have to worry about being nothing more than a walking fuck object in the eyes of the world. It usually lasts only a few hours, maybe a day at most, but it’s great while it lasts.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Oh some of the Clara ones are great! She finds the tardis library! And idk if you heard, but Matt Smith is leaving, 12 will be regen’ing in the anniversary special.

freitag235
freitag235
8 years ago

Cannot wait! I did hear about Matt Smith leaving, and I’m ok with it. He was fun, but a little too hyper and over-the-top to suit me. I saw a little of Clara at the x-mas special, and she had potential. I’m glad to hear that she’s living up to it. Tardis library? Can I go too? Can we organize a Boobz expedition to explore it?

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

It’d take all of us, it’s HUGE. And yeah, Clara’s a good one, none of Amy’s waiting, more like “come ask me again in the morning”.