So my Mighty White of You post — about the demographics of the Men’s Rights subreddit — drew the attention of Obsidian, a longtime Manosphere blogger who has been described by some of his comrades as “the Blackest Man of the Manosphere” (not that this is much of an accomplishment in that lily-white world). He stuck around for some not-terribly productive discussions of race and feminism, pickup artistry, and I can’t remember the rest because I just sort of stopped caring after a while.
But there was one thing he said — a passing remark in a long comment — that stood out to some of the commenters here, and which I thought was revealing enough to warrant highlighting in a post:
I don’t support rape for a very simple reason – because it’s not necessary. A Man with Game doesn’t need to rape anyone.
That … is not a good reason to “not support” rape.
Really, that’s probably the worst reason to “not support” rape besides “I don’t have enough time in my busy schedule to rape anyone today” or “I might muss up my new suit raping someone.”
Do you really need to search for reasons to “not support” rape beyond, you know, the idea that violating other people for your own selfish pleasure is wrong?
PUAs: Even the ones who aren’t directly advocating sexual assault have some pretty fucked up ideas about rape.
Aaliyah: I agree on coffee, I was talking about pepper. Neither should be in packets.
Here’s yet another post (which Dave has seen, because I emailed it to him when we chatted a bit offlist last year, I think it was):
Cafe Date Theory (The GMP Remix)
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/104672
Question:
Where’s the rape?
Anyone?
Anyone?
O.
Black pepper on the espresso itself, or on the milk foam?
Oh. Oops.
@Pecunium:
OK, so let me get this straight: merely describing something, is tantamount to endorsing it?
In what universe?
And, Finachi admitted, several times, that what I said had no “rape” in it.
Don’t worry though, I got lots of posts for you to try “Find the rape!” in, so just stay tuned…
O.
Okay, first off, white text on black background is hideously hard to read, so I didn’t read very much.
The quotation above, though, illustrates what’s fucking wrong with game.
You expect women to fuck you in exchange for drinks, food, or flowers. This is bullshit. Women will fuck you if they like you, or think you’re hot. Many women will fuck people who don’t buy them anything at all, just because that’s what they want to do.
If you believe that the person you want to fuck is OBLIGATED to fuck you because they accept something that you’ve offered them, you are wrong-headed.
I’ve been really enjoying home roasting, Ethiopian-style. Potent stuff (don’t tell third wave coffee snobs though).
O, as I just explained in a note in the Mighty White thread which you may not have seen yet, you’ve been posting way too much, which is disruptive. I would normally put someone posting this much on moderation and a “time out” but I’m going to waive that for this thread, since it mentions you.
But consider youself on a “time out” for all other threads for the next 8 hours or so; if you keep posting in other threads I will go ahead and put you on moderation.
When is rape ever ‘necessary’ such that ‘anymore’ would be applicable?
Files: You are lying again.
The pepper goes on the foam.
@Maude:
Wouldn’t that be one of the questions in that survey Argenti is working on?
MRA Straw Feminist responds to Obsidian: I hate men, but I don’t support actually murdering them. I find murder fairly unnecessary, what with all the men already dying in the wars we women cook up all the time.
@Dave:
I’m moving this response to what you’ve said to the post/thread you’ve dedicated to my “passing remarks”.
“O, you need to take a break from posting in this thread. Normally when someone posts this much in such a short period of time I put them on moderation to slow them down a bit or to give them a time out. But since I just mentioned you in the other thread I don’t think that’s fair.”
O: Fair enough; I can do that.
“So let’s just say you’ve got a time-out in this thread for the next, say, 8 hours, but that you can respond in the other thread. If you keep posting in this thread I’ll put you on moderation.”
O: Wouldn’t want that, now would we? I wouldn’t be able to respond to my interlocutors! Done. Let’s say I’m back in action around 11PM EDT?
“Also, I don’t give out much in the way of personal information on this blog, except about my cats, for a simple reason: some of the people who read me are angry and unethical misogynist assholes who have shown in the past that they will use any information they can glean about me against me, even if if means blatantly lying.”
O: Well, once again we see some similarities between the MRAs and Feminists, because I’ve seen exactly the same thing happen amongst them. And yes, your concerns are quite real and noted, though I didn’t want you exact address, telephone number or anything like that. But again, noted.
“Last year, for example, I gave a talk at Northwestern, as part of the Northwestern Feminists sponsored “sex week,” about the fucked-up sexual ideas in the Manosphere. The organizers of the event handed out condoms and lube afterwards, as they did at all “sex week” events. Your pal WF Price wrote a piece full of blatant lies saying that I was teaching “co-eds” about “good sex,” and that shit got spread all over the manosphere.”
O: Could you please post the link? I’d sure like to see it. Also, is there a transcript of the NU talk you gave, so I can review it for myself and compare it to what Price said?
“So, no, I’m not answering your personal questions, except to say that the neighborhood I live in is one of the more ethnically diverse in Chicago and that I have no interest in any Chicago sports teams. I have had more contact with Cubs fans than Sox fans, and I hate sharing the el train with their drunk asses (the Cubs fans).”
O: In that I have close ties to Chicago, I am aware of the fact that “Cubs/Sox” affiliation/association is one of the ways of marking folk, usually but not solely, along racial and by extension, geographical lines. So by the bit of info above, that tells me quite a bit. Thank you.
“Beyond that, I’m not sure why you keep pushing for demographic info here when one of the regulars here is in the midst of constructing a detailed survey. When that’s completed I will post about it here, regardless of the results. Please do not write about it elsewhere until it is completed, as I don’t want the results contaminated by manosphere types voting in it.”
O: Fair enough.
“I’m not sure how much you can conclude about my twitter followers from that twtrland site beyond the obvious facts that most of them are women and most of them are white. There are a number of POC that I know of amongst my followers, though this is hard to tell from the limited and unreliable data offered by twtrland. (The “top interactions” list seems basically random once it gets beyond a few people I talk to regularly.) I’ll concede that the percentage of POC isn’t enormous, but the fact that a lot of twitter users don’t actually put pictures of themselves on their accounts makes this essentially impossible to calculate. (Also, some of the people who follow and/or interact with me on twitter are MRAs.)”
O: Noted; again, we’ll revist this whole topic when the Official Manboobz Demographic Survey comes out.
“But, again, we’ll have data for Man Boobz in a few days, so what’s your hurry?”
O: Nothing; was just curious why you were so keen to post (and this isn’t the first time you’ve done so, might add) about the racial demographics about any MRA community, when there were none extant for your own, is all…
O.
Yes, yes it is. Two actually, one with lots of detailed options, one specifically corollary to the r/mr options. And it’s relatively scientific — I did take research methods four times (3 schools and two majors and guess wtf doesn’t transfer? FML)
Dvarghundspossen
I didn’t know Argenti was working on a manboobz survey, that’s awesome! Looking forward to the results. I hope trolls won’t ruin it…
Now that I think about it, was there such a survey here about a year ago? I’m not sure if I dreamt it though.
@O
I’m going to repost my comment in the other thread (and some stuff to it) here:
You know what your statement minimally implies and that it would lead to an outraged response. Why, then, did you make it seem as though that was your only reason for not supporting rape? Did you just want to troll us? I doubt that you just wanted to get a reaction because clearly you wanted to show that you aren’t a misogynist, that you aren’t a supporter of rape, etc.
You aren’t convincing many people here.
And in any case, you clearly said this:
I shouldn’t need to point out that the corollary of this statement is that rape should be supported if it’s necessary. It pops right out of the fucking quote. And you can’t backpedal here, I’m afraid, by saying that a man without “Game” also wouldn’t need to rape anyone –because that would make your statement meaningless.
Unless somehow you sincerely take back your statement or reword it in a way that doesn’t completely distort the meaning you allegedly intended, I have no strong reason to believe that you oppose rape because of bodily autonomy. You’re as convincing as an MRA saying that ze sincerely believes that women are fully human.
OF, any chance you could comment on your apparent lies about Pew’s head of household survey?
@Pecunium:
“Your direct advocacy of rape is that you don’t mind other people doing it, you just won’t do it yourself.”
O: Where have I “advocated” for any of this? Please explain?
“You don’t mind gaslightning people, destroying their sense of self, using psychological tricks on them, messing with their head, doing little flips that “Make them go mental” when they get “Out of pocket”.”
O: Merely exiting a situation is now tantamount to all of the above? On what planet?
“You’ll take their techniques, you’ll take their field reports, you’ll take their guidance and stop just short of the actual act because, hey, that’d be going too far…”
O: The “actual act” simply isn’t a part of my worldview, and never has been…
O.
@Aaliyah:
“I’m going to repost my comment in the other thread (and some stuff to it) here:”
O: Thank you…
“You know what your statement minimally implies and that it would lead to an outraged response. Why, then, did you make it seem as though that was your only reason for not supporting rape? Did you just want to troll us? I doubt that you just wanted to get a reaction because clearly you wanted to show that you aren’t a misogynist, that you aren’t a supporter of rape, etc.”
O: I just made a remark in passing, is all; nothing calculated, or some “shadow” motive, or anything like that. I wasn’t looking to get everyone in an uproar, etc. My problem is, WHY are so many people here, many of whom have little if anything to do with PUAs and the like (several commenters have said they’re married), are so deadset on believing ALL PUAs are rapists and so forth? Isn’t that kind of thinking the very same kinds of stereotypical mindset that pervades misogyny, racism, and so forth – that “all” of anything or anyone, are thus and so?
“You aren’t convincing many people here.”
O: I have never set out to convince anyone. I just present the facts as best I have them, and leave it at that.
“I shouldn’t need to point out that the corollary of this statement is that rape should be supported if it’s necessary. It pops right out of the fucking quote. And you can’t backpedal here, I’m afraid, by saying that a man without “Game” also wouldn’t need to rape anyone –because that would make your statement meaningless.”
O: I was speaking to the notion or idea that guys who practice Game are rapists. I was challenging that notion or idea.
“Unless somehow you sincerely take back your statement or reword it in a way that doesn’t completely distort the meaning you allegedly intended, I have no strong reason to believe that you oppose rape because of bodily autonomy. You’re as convincing as an MRA saying that ze sincerely believes that women are fully human.”
O: I’m an MRA who believes, in fact knows, that Women are fully human.
Why is it so very hard for you to grok that?
O.
Maude — pop over to the thread and r/mr’s racial breakdown, it’s over a few pages so I can give the summary if you want, or just email me at my full nym at gmail and I’ll give you the link for the draft version. Probably easier to give feedback that way since it’s all over the place on that thread.
@Nepenthe:
“OF, any chance you could comment on your apparent lies about Pew’s head of household survey?”
O: Certainly; I was under the impression that the study had indicated that a simple majority of American households have Women as the breadwinners; it was brought to my attention that the actual figure would be 40%.
If I am wrong about that, I apologize.
O.
@Dvar:
“MRA Straw Feminist responds to Obsidian: I hate men, but I don’t support actually murdering them. I find murder fairly unnecessary, what with all the men already dying in the wars we women cook up all the time.”
O: LOL! That’s good. Touche…
O.
@Unimaginative:
“Okay, first off, white text on black background is hideously hard to read, so I didn’t read very much.”
O: There *is* the RSS feed option…
“The quotation above, though, illustrates what’s fucking wrong with game.”
O: Actually, the behaviors I described in th above quote long preceeded Game, I’m afraid…
“You expect women to fuck you in exchange for drinks, food, or flowers. This is bullshit. Women will fuck you if they like you, or think you’re hot. Many women will fuck people who don’t buy them anything at all, just because that’s what they want to do.”
O: Indeed! And this is exactly what I’ve said, here: Today’s Lecture: Dating Is For Tools, AFCs & Simps
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/133778
O: Now, please note what I’ve said in my CDT post: it is NOT contingent on sex, AT ALL. Indeed, that is NOT the point of the cafe date, AT ALL. NOTHING, is intended to happen at that time, UNLESS the couple is really feeling each other and want to take things from there, right then and there. Otherwise, the cafe date is the setup to a future meeting/outing.
See?
“If you believe that the person you want to fuck is OBLIGATED to fuck you because they accept something that you’ve offered them, you are wrong-headed.”
O: Please see above – and read my post again?
O.
@Ms. Louise:
“So a man without game does “need” to rape people? What an asshole.”
O: I beg your pardon, that is NOT what I was saying.
“Also, this does not improve my opinion of people who talk about having “game” in general. A clever way to avoid technically having to rape people? Great. Sounds lovely.”
O: Then I invite you to “find the rape” in my over 300 posts on the matter. By all means, go right ahead…
O.