So here’s an interesting chart. Guess what it represents?
A) The membership of the David Duke Fan Club
B) The racial breakdown of the most successful Liberace impersonators
C) The demographics of the Men’s Rights subreddit
Well, ok, that was too easy. It is of course all of the above. I’m guessing. It’s definitely C, at least, as this chart was prepared to show the results of the 2013 Men’s Rights subreddit demographic survey.
Now, you might say, well, isn’t Reddit itself a pretty white place? And you would be right. But the Men’s Rights subreddit seems to be a bit whiter — and a lot less black — than Reddit as a whole, if Quantcast’s estimates of Reddit’s overall ethnic breakdown are accurate.
In other completely non-surprising news, 89% of Men’s Rights Redditors are men. And a lot of them are libertarians. MRAs complain endlessly that we pigeonhole them as a bunch of entitled white dudes. They’re really not doing much to challenge that assumption.
The most important issue to these fellas (and the small minority that aren’t fellas)? Survey says: False rape accusations.
Other critical issues to the Men’s Rightsers include “custody rights” (which is a bit odd because 92% of those surveyed have no kids), “legal discrimination” (whatever that means), “education discrimination” (this is a thing?), and “male disposability.”
“Male birth control” and “paper abortion,” while relatively less important to the Men’s Rightsers, each got hundreds of votes.
I’m surprised “friendzoning” isn’t at the top of the list, but unfortunately it wasn’t one of the choices. I blame misandry.
@Hellkell:
“Are you fucking kidding me with this shit? THIS is an issue?”
Yes: it is very much an issue that concerns itself with beauty/handsomeness norms, and something that Feminists have indeed taken the lead on when it comes the Women. What I’d like to see evidence of is whether they have been so vociferous when it comes to the Men in this regard? Perhaps you can provide some more independently verifiable evidence (your own personal anecdotal situation notwithstanding…)? I’d love to see it.
“Well, fuck. If it makes you feel any better, Mr. HK’s four inches shorter than me. Assclown.”
O: It does. Please see above.
And thank you.
O.
…Suddenly I’m absolutely sure who this is.
How … ‘diverse’ of me? What does that even
And I have no intention of joining in on your goofy onanistic conversation-slalom. I get that you’re black but that’s a weird excuse to pull out for whatever derail or point parkour you want to perform. You’re demanding citations and specifics but presenting nothing but anecdata. You’re making spurious, bizarre claims.
Being affected by the topic doesn’t mean that you are the topic, and you don’t get to speak representatively for your entire demographic, either. Go away.
@Hellkell:
“No, you’re wondering if feminists date short men, clearly the pressing issue of our time. Get fucked.”
O: Feminists have been making the case for the longest time about the importance of challenging prevailing norms of physical attraction. I am asking if any of them have done so with regard to Men, and if so, how and where?
And, I decline to discuss my intimate life; not kissin and telling and all that…
O.
Again, Obsidian, WHY should feminists do your work for you? Are you that much of a titty-baby?
@Katz:
“…Suddenly I’m absolutely sure who this is.”
O: Are you? Alright then – who am I? And what does that, either way, have to do with the question I asked? Does this mean that you can’t find any actual examples of Feminists doing such things (challeging traditional handsomeness norms)? Or what?
O.
Go Google it. we aren’t your research assistants.
(also, has this dude ever seen the way tumblr fawns over Peter Dinklage? There’s a short dude who gets mad feminist fangirls.)
@Hellkell:
“Again, Obsidian, WHY should feminists do your work for you? Are you that much of a titty-baby?”
O: What “work” am I asking them to do for me? Please explain?
O.
Obsidian: Oh, come on. All your requests for links and info to back your claims is tiresome.
Seriously? This is the only way you think that feminists can tear down gender roles? By dating short men, men who do not show traditional masculinity, and by paying for the first date? I’m sure there are blogs out there that discuss those things. I guess anyone who dates Tom Cruise counts as dating short men? I don’t have links to paying for the first date, though I pay for all my dates, (not just the first one!) so I guess if I started a blog it would count as evidence for you? I know that discussions of queer issues often discuss toxic masculinity and how it relates to dating. Tearing down gender roles requires so much more than just focusing on the dating world. I don’t think that dating is top priority, I think it’s more important to focus on the violent aspects of the interaction between the masculine and feminine, before we get to the mundane like paying for a first date or dating short men.
http://www.shakesville.com/2010/02/tha-teaghlach-math-fuireach-anns-taigh.html
http://www.shakesville.com/2011/04/on-birtherism.html
http://www.shakesville.com/2012/02/i-cannot-truly-want-what-i-am-told-i.html
Never said that domestic violence didn’t apply to men as well. That’s rather irrelevant.
Chris Brown saw an upswing in profits. He has fans who literally tweet they’d allow him to beat him up. When Rhianna went back to him there was a crucifiction of her in the media saying that she deserves to be beaten up again if it happens. That’s also something that’s not seen regarding male victims.
Not by the CDC, or any other country’s stats afaik
And stats don’t take recidivism or repeat rapes into account either. Your point being?
Go read The Story of Jane Doe, then come back to me telling me feminists don’t work at changing perceptions of Rape Culture and help to change law enforcement tactics regarding rape.
ItIt’s something to be addressed when the more important things have been looked at and addressed. It’s not in the interest of society to ignore the larger social problems to fix minutia.
And yet… the one that’s more prevalent isn’t even given lip service in the MRM.
Uh…??? A) there already is a better way to pick up women, it’s called being honest and open. B) That’s not at all the same reason?
Stats have to be statistically significant for it to be above random chance? Wanna try again?
Because it’s not straightforward in any way. It’s important to discuss how the intersectionality exists and how it affects the situation in order to have a meaningful discussion about it. It’s like randomized control trials, you have to control for unknown and known variables before you can discuss the results.
How far have you looked? Given how little work you’ve done supporting anything else, I’m inclined to say not very far…
@Hellkell:
“Go Google it. we aren’t your research assistants.”
O: Nor am I for any of you…
O.
Katz: I don’t think this is who you’re thinking it is. There’s no wit there.
I am a feminist, and I have dated two men who were as short or shorter than me (and I’m only 5’3″).
Does that settle it?
I have read so much feminist work that challenged prevailing norms of physical attraction with regard to men… You question it happened? Find me proof it didn’t.
Okay, that’s actually slightly more ridiculous than your demands. Yet I still feel it is a justified satire. I lolled.
Here’s another feminist who finds her slightly-shorter husband mad attractive. It seems like most of the “traditional handsomeness norms” you bizarrely refer to are actually standards that patriarchy sets up. Things like being big and strong and chiseled, for example. I really don’t know very many women who prefer their guys rock-hard and super-tall… In fact, my friends all have VASTLY-varying standards for what is “attractive” to them.
BAM. Truth bomb!
@Obisidian, “Roe for men” means that children would have to suffer because the non custodial parent, usually the dad, would fail to meet the children’s needs. Half of those children are boys. Why are the needs of little boys less important than grown men?
Also, do you believe in a strong safety net to help single parents? Do you support programs like WIC, SNAP, free school lunches, Medicaid, and Section 8 to ensure that poor children can have a home, plenty of food, and quality healthcare? If you don’t support those programs, then I can’t back any plan to let dads give up all financial responsibility for their children.
Do you think it’d be a fair deal that if a dad gets a “paper abortion” that he then must stay far from the mother or uterus haver, and the baby for the rest of their lives? Otherwise, he would have to pay back child support with interest. It is not fair for him to get the paper abortion, but then change his mind when the kids are grown and he wants them back in his life.
If a mother,or anyone else with a uterus, gives birth and wants to give the baby up for adoption, then the father is allowed to step in and take custody. Then the mother, or other parent with a uterus, is expected to pay child support.
Anecdote time: My cousin just had a baby Monday, and she is giving the baby up to a couple in Illinois. The baby’s father doesn’t want the baby going to Illinois, but he also refuses to give the baby any care or pay a dime of child support. That’s why he doesn’t get any say in the adoption process, because he won’t take any responsibility.
I’ll admit I find tall men more attractive than short men, and my husband is a foot taller than me. It’s kind of hypocritical for you to complain about women’s tastes in men, though, when your own blog is full of complaining about how US women are too fat and ugly.
Nope, we completely disagree on this. Reread what I said. Roe V Wade and Doe V Bolton were about legalizing abortion. You also didn’t cite anything.
This wasn’t the topic? My claim was that tearing down gender roles allows women to no longer be the default in childrearing. This is regarding family court issues. My other claim was that for men who want to be able to walk away, allowing the government to give the child support would decrease any financial pressure on the woman to get an abortion when she doesn’t want one. This is regarding reproductive rights. Neither of those is about fighting for the rights of dads to be involved in the lives of their kids. Jesus, you’re bad at reading comprehension. And no, that’s not an ad hominim, that’s just a statement of fact.
I’m done with you unless you start addressing shit and citing your claims.
I am therefore engaging the topic and related topics, mainly the question of whether the MRA agenda holds any relevance to Black Men. I am making the case that it indeed does.
Nope. You are asserting it does. Then you ask what feminists are doing to get women to date, “non-hunks”.†
You are prating about how men need to be able to abandon children; and pretending Roe is about privacy (which is as inane as the Supreme Court saying you don’t have the right to avoid self incrimination unless you specifically mention the 5th Amendment, or that a DNA sample from all arrested persons isn’t intrusive because it’s not the same as tossing all your papers on the floor, just being touched with a sterile Q-tip™).
†What would it take for you to think feminism has done enough? get every dude who’s horny and beer and a shag? Because I would be willing to lay odds that no matter what we link to, no matter who has said things about body image, and that people are people and treat them as people, etc. you won’t accept it. Like I said, until Feminism has make it all about the Menz, you won’t do a damned thing.
Oh lord. Hey MRAs, it’s hilariously typical when your demands that feminists help men include dating. Feminists don’t exist to service your ideological needs with their bodies. Of course, if you actually paid attention to what women say, you’d know they very often say they don’t like toxic masculinity, that they like men who exhibit feminine traits, etc.. It’s predominantly men who police each other’s adherence to male gender roles. In my life, I’ve found that most women—not most feminists, most women—have been far more on board with men getting away from strict masculinity than the vast majority of men have.
Here is the link to what I’m talking about with “paper abortions” or “Roe for men”. Amanda Marcotte already said it better than I ever could.
Fine, Would-Be Deadbeat Dads. Here’s A Suggestion For You
Oh, FFS. Even Tom Martin had to admit that feminism was better on this one.
Tom fucking Martin!
@SittieKitty:
“Seriously?”
O: Yes.
“This is the only way you think that feminists can tear down gender roles?”
O: No.
“By dating short men, men who do not show traditional masculinity, and by paying for the first date?”
O: Do I take all this to mean that you can’t give any examples?
“I’m sure there are blogs out there that discuss those things.”
O: You are? Links, please?
“I guess anyone who dates Tom Cruise counts as dating short men?”
O: Only if they’re avowed Feminists…
“I don’t have links to paying for the first date, though I pay for all my dates, (not just the first one!) so I guess if I started a blog it would count as evidence for you?”
O: It would be a start…
“I know that discussions of queer issues often discuss toxic masculinity and how it relates to dating.”
O: That’s fine if you’re queer; but what if you’re not?
“Tearing down gender roles requires so much more than just focusing on the dating world.”
O: I never claimed otherwise.
“I don’t think that dating is top priority, I think it’s more important to focus on the violent aspects of the interaction between the masculine and feminine, before we get to the mundane like paying for a first date or dating short men.”
O: The mere presence of the Seduction community, begs to differ…
“Never said that domestic violence didn’t apply to men as well. That’s rather irrelevant.”
O: Tell that to Mary J. Blige’s battered in public hubbie…
“Chris Brown saw an upswing in profits. He has fans who literally tweet they’d allow him to beat him up. When Rhianna went back to him there was a crucifiction of her in the media saying that she deserves to be beaten up again if it happens. That’s also something that’s not seen regarding male victims.”
O: Indeed; see above…oh, let’s not forget the fact that Chris Brown’s main customer base are Women themselves, in this case, largely Black Women. And, as you noted, Rihanna took him back. Hmm.
“And stats don’t take recidivism or repeat rapes into account either. Your point being?”
O: Actually, they do, per Pinker’s findings of the stats, data and research. For example, and in alignment with Pinker’s argument per his book, not only has violent crime of all kinds been on the steady decline over time, but here in my hometown of Philly, violent crime has been lower than the country as a whole. That would include rape.
“Go read The Story of Jane Doe, then come back to me telling me feminists don’t work at changing perceptions of Rape Culture and help to change law enforcement tactics regarding rape.”
O: I’ll look into it.
“ItIt’s something to be addressed when the more important things have been looked at and addressed. It’s not in the interest of society to ignore the larger social problems to fix minutia.”
O: Brian Banks’ ordeal is “minutia”? Really? And, who said anything about ignoring anything? Why can’t we do both, work to reduce rape and at the same time, work to reduce false rape charges/convictions?
“And yet… the one that’s more prevalent isn’t even given lip service in the MRM.”
O: Just like the Brian Banks’ of the world isn’t mentioned by the Feminists…
“Uh…??? A) there already is a better way to pick up women, it’s called being honest and open.”
O: Then there’d be no need for the community. “Just being yourself” has proven itself not to work.
“B) That’s not at all the same reason?”
O: Sorry, I don’t follow; please restate/rephrase?
“Stats have to be statistically significant for it to be above random chance? Wanna try again?”
O: Sure, tell that to the Brothas who are out of work and have been for months and in some cases, years..I’m pretty sure they will be perfectly cool with your explaining the ins and outs of statistics.
“Because it’s not straightforward in any way.”
O: Yes, it is; you just cannot cite any evidence. How unfortunate.
“How far have you looked? Given how little work you’ve done supporting anything else, I’m inclined to say not very far…”
O: You have no idea whatsoever as to what work I have or haven’t done, and this again only goes to prove the point – you CAN’T provide evidence to support your claims here.
Thanks for your cooperation…
O.
Wow. This is terrifying…
http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/05/when-men-sabotage-birth-control.html