So here’s an interesting chart. Guess what it represents?
A) The membership of the David Duke Fan Club
B) The racial breakdown of the most successful Liberace impersonators
C) The demographics of the Men’s Rights subreddit
Well, ok, that was too easy. It is of course all of the above. I’m guessing. It’s definitely C, at least, as this chart was prepared to show the results of the 2013 Men’s Rights subreddit demographic survey.
Now, you might say, well, isn’t Reddit itself a pretty white place? And you would be right. But the Men’s Rights subreddit seems to be a bit whiter — and a lot less black — than Reddit as a whole, if Quantcast’s estimates of Reddit’s overall ethnic breakdown are accurate.
In other completely non-surprising news, 89% of Men’s Rights Redditors are men. And a lot of them are libertarians. MRAs complain endlessly that we pigeonhole them as a bunch of entitled white dudes. They’re really not doing much to challenge that assumption.
The most important issue to these fellas (and the small minority that aren’t fellas)? Survey says: False rape accusations.
Other critical issues to the Men’s Rightsers include “custody rights” (which is a bit odd because 92% of those surveyed have no kids), “legal discrimination” (whatever that means), “education discrimination” (this is a thing?), and “male disposability.”
“Male birth control” and “paper abortion,” while relatively less important to the Men’s Rightsers, each got hundreds of votes.
I’m surprised “friendzoning” isn’t at the top of the list, but unfortunately it wasn’t one of the choices. I blame misandry.
I can’t believe I skimmed the whole thing!
Well at least it’s clear why his thinking is so lazy.
Files: I’m not the one with an holier than thou attitude of moral rectitude and piety;
Bullshit. You are the one blaming us for rape manuals. That’s being holier than thou. You even used religious metaphors to make your case (planks, soul searching).
Files: O: Nobody made any such claim; moreover, I’m not the one with an holier than thou attitude of moral rectitude and piety; the Left has much soul searching to do in this regard.
Context. You were telling someone to shut up, because they had planks in their eyes. That means you think the flaws in the MRM are as motes.
Then you mention Sacks, who killed services for men, in the name of, “helping them”. You have the death of Earl Silverman; whom the MRM didn’t really care enough about to help when he was alive, but were willing to blame the death of on women.
You’ve got a racist running the Spearhead, an overwhelmingly white Movement; which blames blacks for a huge number of the ills it claims are causing a need for, “THE Civil Rights battle of the 21st century”.
AVfM which thinks that doxxing people so they can be harrassed is fine. Which touts the idea that when a woman offends you, the thing to do is beat her bloody and make her clean it up.
But Feminism (whth the women of color I, and Nobiniyamu) have mentioned; which admits it’s had problems, but from the beginning has admitted that all women need to be lifted up (Ain’t I a Woman?), even if they were blind to the differences in lifestyles, between poor and middle class and rich, and non-white (at all levels of class); and is working now (again, see that list of names) to deal with how those different aspects of the problem intersect; that’s what you are working to fix.
And make no bones about it, by coming here, and preaching to us about how we need to change things (so dudes can get their dicks wet more often), rather than calling out your pals in the MRM on their shit, are saying that the bigger problem is feminism; that the MRM is far less fucked up than it is, and that it’s fucked-uppedness isn’t as bad as feminism.
Cry me a river.
Um, so is your point here that even though Glenn Sacks and the MRM are deliberately trying to prevent men from leaving unsafe situations, because it’s impossible to know how many men have been harmed, it’s all okay? Is that your fucking barometer for what makes a movement moral?
This is telling:
Think about it… until Feminism (and, “The Left”) meet his standards then he doesn’t give a shit what a cesspool the MRM is.
Amen to that.
@SittieKitty:
“Lmao, no. There’s no such thing as Roe for Men.”
O: http://www.humanevents.com/2006/03/17/roe-v-wade-for-men/
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/is-forced-fatherhood-fair/
“Roe had to do with a medical procedure. So does abortion. Unfortunately, this is one area where I will say that the world is not fair. People with uteruses get to decide what organisms get to camp out for 9 months. It’s their organ they are donating.”
O: Roe has to do with a right to privacy, which holds to this day. Medically safe abortions had pre-existed the Roe v Wade ruling.
“It’d be ideal if the court system could do inquiries into claims that men do not want the child and could provide some dispensation to a mother who does want to keep it; that way the men hold no responsibility and the women still get help for raising the child.”
O: Women are now fully self-supporting; in the Black community, Black Women attend university at all-time numbers. Moreover, Women of all colors are able to give the child up for adoption per the Baby Moses laws. Men have no such “workarounds”. This is what Roe For Men seeks to address.
“It also would cut back on the ability of a man to financially blackmail the mother into getting an abortion, since men on average earn a hell of a lot more, and child support payments are pitiful in amount and are often walked away from with little consequence.”
O: This is not consistent with the research on this matter, including that which is the most recent by Edin and Nelson; see here: http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/news-and-opinion/cover-story/Doing-the-best-i-can-talks-with-poor-urban-dads-unwed-fatherhood-211092101.html
And I’ve written about Edin & Nelson’s article here: http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/134326
“But that’s unlikely. Best solution is to take care in birth control and to provide effective birth control and sex education to all people – which is why a birth control option for men is so important.”
O: Roe For Men in no way stands in opposition to the widespread use or availability of contraceptives or sex education. RFM is about giving Men the right under which circumstances they wish to be parents – which is what Original Roe affords Women in our time, right now.
O.
So they’re totally white…but there are black people there having disagreements?
Translation: I don’t have a sliver of credibility.
…Do you even read Feministe?
Conflating abortion and adoption; pregnancy and child support.
Lazy. Fucking. Thinking.
There is no “forced fatherhood.”
Child support payments can be court mandated. Parenting cannot.
I have a wonderful father; his contribution to my life is far greater than financial.
…I just realized who he reminds me of.
OF:
Roe v wade was about abortion rights:
Medically safe abortions existed, but were in a bit of a nebulous legal zone. And all this is USA centric, which doesn’t hold for anyone outside of the US.
Citations please. And please also compare the total numbers per capita of white women attending university, black women attending university, and black men attending university. Until you do, I reject your premise. Saying that black women attend university at all time numbers literally means nothing unless you’ve done a comparison of percentage of black women attending university against black men and white women.
Your article in Philly Weekly has nothing to do with what I was talking about? It’s irrelevant. The issues was about men choosing not to finance a child of theirs. Not about whether men can make good parents or not. Maybe try to stay on topic?
If you aren’t going to engage in the discussion, I don’t see the point of talking to you. Please answer the words as written instead of whatever you’re doing now.
@SittieKitty:
“Male gender roles generally advocate for men to be “traditionally masculine”. This has positive effects, such as men being more often associated with things like bravery, strength, intelligence, ect, as well as negative effects, such as men being on the draft, men being the primary breadwinner, and men being considered only good for STEM jobs. It reduces the availability of jobs for men by decreasing the acceptability of men going into jobs like teaching, nursing, counselling, and art. Similarly, it sets up stereotypes in the media of men having to be “tough” or they are considered not manly enough and portrayed as baffoons or overly emotional. Often, men are compared with women and feminine traits negatively, as if it is “bad” to be a woman and therefore you are “less” of a man if you do so.”
O: OK.
“By tearing down gender roles, and reducing the idea that toxic masculinity is the only way for men to be, feminists help to remove the stigma for men of being unable to share their emotions and removes the barriers put up to encourage negative portrayals of men in media as true of men as a whole, instead of as true of only that one character. Many jokes in sitcoms use this negative stereotype as the punchline, and have been for years: see Big Bang Theory, Friends.”
O: OK. Let’s discuss the Feminists’ tearing down the wall of gender roles as it relates to dating. How many Feminsts are dating very short Men? Men who do not evidence traditional male traits? Asking (and paying) for those first dates with such Men – and where can I go to see this being openly written about by Feminists online?
“This is where my tangential part of that comes in. If women are considered by default to be best possible parents because of female gender roles, then women are often considered default caregivers to their own children. By removing that stereotype of female gender roles, it is less likely that women will be considered the default for children and therefore more likely that men will be considered as an option.”
O: All of which is indeed admirable; but again, I cannot think of any Feminists offhand who is actively making such a case; and I notice that you have not posted any such links either…
“By the way, when men ask for it they get custody 50% of the time. Men are not asking for custody, more often than not, and that’s the reason that women most often get the kids in court. Finally, it’s never just a default, at least in my country, the judge is legally mandated to ask the dad in family court whether he wants shared custody of his children. This is true of all court cases where abuse charges haven’t been laid. Please note, I said where abuse charges haven’t been laid, and not where abuse hasn’t been accused.”
O: Which country are you in? Also: http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/news-and-opinion/cover-story/Doing-the-best-i-can-talks-with-poor-urban-dads-unwed-fatherhood-211092101.html
“I’m assuming you already know that most violence against women is perpetrated by men.”
O: I would never deny that fact. And yet, we also know that Women beating up their boyfriends or hubbies is not completely alien either: http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2009/12/mary-j-blige-hits-husband/
When R&B singer Chris Brown beat up his girlfriend Rihanna, there were all kinds of calls to boycott his music, etc – which I had no problem with. I do not own any Chris Brown music precisely because of his actions against Rihanna. To be consistent, I also do not own any music by Mary J. Blige. Both are spousal abusers (Blige even moreso, since she committed by brutality in full view of others). To date, Blige has recevied nowhere near the kinds of (rightful) excoriation that Brown has received.
“I’m assuming you also already know that 3:4 women will experience some form of sexual assault in their lives,”
O: This has been disputed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature
“and that 1:4 women experience completed or attempted forcible penetration.”
O: See above. Rapes have declined some 70% since stats on the crime began being recorded in the early 70s.
“I’m assuming you know most of these assaults are committed by someone close to the victim.”
O: Yes, I am.
“Overwhelmingly, these assaults are done by men. Unsurprisingly, there is still a culture that ties women’s self-worth to their sexual availability and the madonna/whore complex still very much exists. Rape is a sensitive and shame-laden topic, and yet it’s also normalized through rape culture by the prevalence of rape jokes where the victim is the punchline, through people victim blaming, and through shaming the victim, among others.”
O: All of which, while regrettable, are not against the law; people have the right to make off-color jokes. Moreover, there are stiff legal penalties for those who commit the crime of rape, and rightly so.
“By reducing the all-depressingly-too-common experience of sexual assault, and by combating rape culture, feminists work to reduce the number of perpetrators.”
O: Actually, law enforcement has worked to reduce the number of perps – again, we have hard data bearing this out.
“Reduce the number of perpetrators and the amount of times this happens, you’ll reduce the perception that women have to watch out for themselves whenever they leave the house in anything less than a skisuit. Reducing that will also reduce the perception that men they know might rape them.”
O: Again: rape has declined to the tune of more than 70% over the past four decades. A tremendous achievement by any estimation.
“It’s bullshit. It focuses on the wrong thing. I believe you when you say it’s a grave issue for the MRA agenda, but it’s not a grave issue for society.”
O: It is not in the interest of society to curtail the wrongful conviction of innocent Men because Women falsely accused them? How does society benefit from Brian Banks being locked up on trumped up false charges for five years of his life? How have we all benefitted from this? Please explain?
“Men commit most of the violence in the world. If it was so important, then why isn’t it trumped by the fact that men are also falsely accused of other violent crimes in far higher numbers?”
O: One doesn’t diminish the other, nor are they something that should be viewed as mutually exclusive.
“Why aren’t those false accusations even on the MRA radar?”
O: For the same reasons why Feminists don’t see it necessary to present a better model of pickup to the fellas? *shrug*
“The only reason is because it’s women doing the primary accusations in this category, where it’s both men and women (primarily men) doing the accusing in other false violence crime accusations.”
O: And again, no one is preventing those who wish to challenge lapses in the criminal justice system in those other areas. The MRA agenda, when it comes to Black Men especially, is indeed very important on this score.
“I’d like to see stats on that.”
O: http://www.blackandmarriedwithkids.com/2013/06/college-enrollment-for-black-women-hits-record-high/
http://newsone.com/2369469/2013-state-of-black-america-redeem-the-dream/3/
Please note the inforgraphic.
“And I’d like to see you address the intersection of class and race inherent in this problem first, before I’m able to address it in any meaningful way.”
O: Why? My statement in this regard was quite straightforward, and to date no one has presented any countervailing evidence.
“You need to first provide examples that feminists who work closely with black communities on this issue are doing it only for the women and not the men.”
O: But that’s just it – where ARE the Feminists who work closely on these issues? As far as I can tell here in Philly, they seem to have a very narrow set of (self-serving) interests that don’t have anything to do with all the things you have profferred above.
Barring strong evidence to the contrary, I remain unconvinced…
O.
SideKitty: If you aren’t going to engage in the discussion, I don’t see the point of talking to you. Please answer the words as written instead of whatever you’re doing now.
Don’t be so misandric: you know his pet issues are more important than silly things like facts and he had an article published, so you have to believe the other things he says, they just look like bullshit and nonsense (and gross misrepresentation/misunderstanding of the facts). He’s an Important Dude in the MRM, he would never dodge the question nor dissimulate on the facts.
@SittieKitty:
“Medically safe abortions existed, but were in a bit of a nebulous legal zone. And all this is USA centric, which doesn’t hold for anyone outside of the US.”
O: Indeed; I think it’s fair to keep the focus on the USA. Glad to see that we agree on the point; Roe then, wasn’t about whether abortions were or were not medically safe or available, but whether a Woman had the right to a private life. Roe For Men, same thing.
“Citations please.”
O: Please see my previous comment…
“And please also compare the total numbers per capita of white women attending university, black women attending university, and black men attending university. Until you do, I reject your premise. Saying that black women attend university at all time numbers literally means nothing unless you’ve done a comparison of percentage of black women attending university against black men and white women.”
O: Again, please see my previous comment…
“Your article in Philly Weekly has nothing to do with what I was talking about? It’s irrelevant. The issues was about men choosing not to finance a child of theirs. Not about whether men can make good parents or not. Maybe try to stay on topic?”
O: I am. I was addressing your claim about Feminists fighting for the rights of dads to be involved in the lives of their kids. Please point out to me all the Feminists advocating on behalf of the Men Edin and Nelson interviewed? I’ll wait…
“If you aren’t going to engage in the discussion, I don’t see the point of talking to you. Please answer the words as written instead of whatever you’re doing now.”
O: Please see above.
O.
@Pecunium:
“Don’t be so misandric: you know his pet issues are more important than silly things like facts and he had an article published, so you have to believe the other things he says, they just look like bullshit and nonsense (and gross misrepresentation/misunderstanding of the facts).”
O: OK; so, what have I said in my Charles Ramsey piece, that was inaccurate? Please explain? Also, I’ve been writing for the Spearhead for at least the past few years, if not longer…
“He’s an Important Dude in the MRM, he would never dodge the question nor dissimulate on the facts.”
O: I’m doing a heck of a lot better than you are…
O.
Ugh, this dude’s point-dodging and refusal to set goalposts down for even a second aren’t funny any more. I vote moderation.
Nobinayamu:
“Conflating abortion and adoption; pregnancy and child support.”
O: No, I’m not. I am talking about the many options Women have and enjoy in these areas, that Men do not.
“Lazy. Fucking. Thinking.”
O: Yes. You most definitely are.
“There is no “forced fatherhood.””
O: Yes, there is: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/is-forced-fatherhood-fair/
“Child support payments can be court mandated. Parenting cannot.”
O: Thus forced fatherhood.
“I have a wonderful father; his contribution to my life is far greater than financial.”
O: That is nice to hear. No Man should be forced to care for a child he doesn’t want.
End of.
O.
Are you fucking kidding me with this shit? THIS is an issue?
Well, fuck. If it makes you feel any better, Mr. HK’s four inches shorter than me. Assclown.
Files: O: OK; so, what have I said in my Charles Ramsey piece, that was inaccurate? Please explain? Also, I’ve been writing for the Spearhead for at least the past few years, if not longer…
I didn’t say anything about the merits of the Ramsey Piece. I said you were using an outside (and not relevant to the present discussion) piece as a form of Authority.
What you are saying about Roe is patently false. Privacy was the justification for the holding; but the ruling was about abortion. To pretend otherwise is tendentious mendacity.
O: I’m doing a heck of a lot better than you are…
No, you aren’t.
Price is a racist. The MRM doesn’t give a wet shit about people of Color. The MRM doesn’t work to help men who are being abused (see Sacks). False Rape isn’t a big deal.
You aver the opposite, and say Feminism is worse on all fronts.
When pressed, you change the topic, and try to move the goal posts. You’ve ducked a lot of specific questions.
If this is your best…
@Inurashii:
“Ugh, this dude’s point-dodging and refusal to set goalposts down for even a second aren’t funny any more. I vote moderation.”
O: Oh, how “diverse” of you.
I am Black. The current topic directly addresses Men like me. I am therefore engaging the topic and related topics, mainly the question of whether the MRA agenda holds any relevance to Black Men. I am making the case that it indeed does.
Please feel free to join in on the conversation anytime you’re ready…
O.
No, you’re wondering if feminists date short men, clearly the pressing issue of our time. Get fucked.
Shorter ObsidianFiles:
*posts endless walls of text*
O.