So here’s an interesting chart. Guess what it represents?
A) The membership of the David Duke Fan Club
B) The racial breakdown of the most successful Liberace impersonators
C) The demographics of the Men’s Rights subreddit
Well, ok, that was too easy. It is of course all of the above. I’m guessing. It’s definitely C, at least, as this chart was prepared to show the results of the 2013 Men’s Rights subreddit demographic survey.
Now, you might say, well, isn’t Reddit itself a pretty white place? And you would be right. But the Men’s Rights subreddit seems to be a bit whiter — and a lot less black — than Reddit as a whole, if Quantcast’s estimates of Reddit’s overall ethnic breakdown are accurate.
In other completely non-surprising news, 89% of Men’s Rights Redditors are men. And a lot of them are libertarians. MRAs complain endlessly that we pigeonhole them as a bunch of entitled white dudes. They’re really not doing much to challenge that assumption.
The most important issue to these fellas (and the small minority that aren’t fellas)? Survey says: False rape accusations.
Other critical issues to the Men’s Rightsers include “custody rights” (which is a bit odd because 92% of those surveyed have no kids), “legal discrimination” (whatever that means), “education discrimination” (this is a thing?), and “male disposability.”
“Male birth control” and “paper abortion,” while relatively less important to the Men’s Rightsers, each got hundreds of votes.
I’m surprised “friendzoning” isn’t at the top of the list, but unfortunately it wasn’t one of the choices. I blame misandry.
Is that what you’re doing?
@Hellkell:
““Roe For Men?” Oh, do fuck right off.”
O: Oh, what an erudite counter-argument! With such dazzling oratory, I can fully see how and why RFM won’t become a reality for another 1,000 years!
*NOT*
O.
Obsidian, how do you know that feminist spaces are as white as MR spaces? Do you have any basis for that assumption?
Certainly there is much more open racism in MR spaces than there is in feminist spaces. As you obviously know well, there’s the whole alt racist right wing of the manosphere, but there’s a lot of open racism elsewhere as well. A lot of complaints about “thugs” and “welfare mothers” and other barely coded racism.
And then there’s all the racist fetishization of asian women, latin women, etc etc.
@Hellkell:
“Is that what you’re doing?”
O: Indeed; do you actually have any substantive questions to ask now?
O.
Calling it “Roe For Men” is about as disingenuous as it gets.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I was neutral on the matter of Ms. Fluke.
I lol’d. ‘Hmm, one the one hand, I can see that she’s a human being with a right to petition the government to address her basic healthcare concerns. But then again, there are some who say she’s a filthy slutty slutbag who has to take 200 birth control pills a day because she’s having so much sex. Both sides make good points.’
Yeah, Obsidian, why you here? Can’t you flog your blog anywhere else?
I don’t see a lot of activism from you, just attention whoring.
@Dave:
“Obsidian, how do you know that feminist spaces are as white as MR spaces? Do you have any basis for that assumption?”
O: Yes. Jezebel, Feminist and Feministe are all Quite White, and all have had instances of serious disagrements on questions of sex and race on their message boards between White and Black Feminists. Pandagon – same deal. Which appears at the top of your “antidote” blogroll, I might add. The Feminists are just as White as the MRAs you’re excoriating and has long been known among Black folks.
“Certainly there is much more open racism in MR spaces than there is in feminist spaces.”
O: Whether that’s true or not, that wasn’t the question you posed in your original topic; you specifically pointed out the fact that MRA Reddit was largely White. Fair enough – but I or just about anyone Black could say the exact same thing of the biggest, most well known and most popular online venues that are Feminist as well.
“As you obviously know well, there’s the whole alt racist right wing of the manosphere, but there’s a lot of open racism elsewhere as well. A lot of complaints about “thugs” and “welfare mothers” and other barely coded racism.”
O: Sure – but who’s to say that Feminist spaces aren’t racist in their own way either? Clearly, the fact that Black Feminists don’t even mess around with White(er) Feminist spaces would at least lead one to consider that possibility…
“And then there’s all the racist fetishization of asian women, latin women, etc etc.”
O: Last time I checked, people in America had the right to freedom of association…*shrug*
O.
@Hellkell:
“Yeah, Obsidian, why you here? Can’t you flog your blog anywhere else?”
O: I am here to upset your apple cart. So far, so good!
“I don’t see a lot of activism from you, just attention whoring.”
O: *Holds up mirror*
O.
Wow, that was quite the hand-wave. Very telling.
@Hellkell:
“Calling it “Roe For Men” is about as disingenuous as it gets.”
O: No, calling it Roe For Men is about as accurate as it gets…the State has no business meddling in the private lives and decisions of American citizens.
Next dissembling, intellectually dishonest question – and don’t leave out the gratuitous Ad Homs?
O.
I’m trying to work out how ‘racist fetishization’ equals ‘freedom of association’, but I think my brain is actually physically incapable of that level of stupid.
@Hellkell:
“Wow, that was quite the hand-wave. Very telling.”
O: Indeed; last time I checked, Asian Women didn’t seem to have much of a problem with their marital and romantic arrangements with White Men – and for my part, I just can’t be arsed to care all that much what people do with their private lives. Interesting that the Feminists seem so very concerned, though:
Seeking Asian Female
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/133733
Sistas In America Have Very Good Reason To Be “Frustrated”
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/124568
O.
@Kiki:
“I’m trying to work out how ‘racist fetishization’ equals ‘freedom of association’, but I think my brain is actually physically incapable of that level of stupid.”
O: That’s hardly surprising, since it also appears that you have difficulty grokking the idea that “racist fetishization”, even if true, doesn’t have anything to do with said “racial fetishizer” having the right to associate with whomever he or she pleases…
O.
don’t leave out the gratuitous Ad Homs
Dude, we’ve already established that you have absolutely no idea what that means. It’s right there on this page for everyone to see. You really ought to quit while you’re, erm… well, just quit.
“racist fetishization”, even if true, doesn’t have anything to do with said “racial fetishizer” having the right to associate with whomever he or she pleases…
You’re absolutely right, it doesn’t, and nobody was saying it did! So why the fuck did you bring up freedom of association?
@David: Recently, I’ve begun to read various blogs by black feminists, and I’ve seen lots of discussions on how black women often feel excluded from mainstream feminist spaces. Mainly because white feminists tend to pay lip service to anti-racism, but in praxis they’re pretty blind to their own privilege. They talk about what it’s like to be a white woman with the assumption that this is what it’s like for WOMEN (for instance, growing up with fairy-tales that tell you that you ought to be passive and pretty and marry a prince, whereas black women grow up with fairy-tales that simply have no message to give them at all because they’re not even included), and feel attacked and start using tone arguments when black women point this out.
So, been a bit of an eye-opener for me.
Still, there’s a difference between trying to make someone who at least pays lip service to anti-racism and regards herself as an anti-racist to see the light, and on the other hand to convert someone who’s an out and open racist. So I’d reckon being a black feminist would still be easier than being a black MRA.
@Dave:
Moreover – I for one would be elated if Jezebel, Feministing, Feministe, Pandagon and other Feminist sites and blogs, conducted and released the results of their own demographic polls. The results I think, would be quite illuminating. Are these venues *more*, or *less*, racially diverse, than the MRA Reddit and other Manosphere venues? Perhaps you could find this out, Dave, just for the record? Given your journalistic creds, surely you could find out?
Maybe all of you are right, and that I’m all wet – maybe the (White) Feminist spaces are in fact, more diverse than the Manosphere ones. If so, I for one would have no problem coming back here and apologizing to all of you.
Let’s see if we can find out, hmm?
O.
@Kiki:
“You’re absolutely right, it doesn’t, and nobody was saying it did! So why the fuck did you bring up freedom of association?”
O: Because I’m making the point THAT ITS NOBODY’S EFFING BUSINESS WHO SOMEONE WANTS TO BE WITH. That’s why.
O.
@Dvar:
“Still, there’s a difference between trying to make someone who at least pays lip service to anti-racism and regards herself as an anti-racist to see the light, and on the other hand to convert someone who’s an out and open racist. So I’d reckon being a black feminist would still be easier than being a black MRA.”
O: Hmm. I think most Blacks in general would much rather deal with the flagrant racism of the Old South than to have to deal with the subtle racism of the North. I wonder how Black Feminists would feel about it, though…
O.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh, you are PRECIOUS.
@Ms. Sittie Kitty:
“Feminism (2) addresses Male Gender Roles (10), which also takes care of Negative portrayal in the media”
O: It does? Can you or anyone else here point me to any examples of this?
“(9), and, tangentially, by addressing what the primary caregiver of children should be and working toward changing that default perception that women are the ones who should be taking care of children, which relates to Father’s Rights (1)”
O: Actually, that’s only a small part of the concern in that regard. Are Feminists working to change custody, family court and child support laws, and if so, can you please point me to examples of this?
“and part 2 of (4) Removing the Notion That All Men Are Potential Pedophiles. [Un]Surprisingly, by working on rape culture and recognizing the issues inherent in the widespread violence against women, feminism also works at (4) Removing the Notion That All Men Are Potential Rapists.”
O: How? Examples, please?
“I should like to see what “Better Treatment of Men Regarding False Accusations” (6) actually means?”
O: I’ve addressed this in regard to Black Men and the recent case of Brian Banks.
“Without working on reducing the frequency of rape I’m not sure how this could even be used, especially since false rape accusations are actually less than other violent crimes like assault and/or battery.”
O: Assuming that’s true, that doesn’t diminish the importance of addressing the issue of false rape charges. Even if it indeed is very small percentagewise, it is still an issue of grave important for the MRA agenda, and even moreso for Black Men.
“Again, [un]surprisingly, this is despite the fact that 5-15% of sexual assaults are even reported, which makes the actual number of false accusations vanishingly small.”
O: See above…
“Regarding Educating Boys (8), men are able to acquire jobs with a lower standard of education than women doing the same work. In other words, women require more education than men in order to get the exact same job. Once again, feminists work on this.”
O: Indeed they have – in the Black community, Black Women now attend university at all time levels, exceeding even non-Whites in this regard. Meanwhile, the Black Male unemployment rate continues its multi-decades long all-time highs, and this regardless as to their relative education level. School closures here in my hometown of Philly and elsewhere, promise even more hardships on Black Men. I am not seeing Feminists addressing any of this.
“Making Government Programs Gender-Neutral or Accompanied by a Male Equivalent (7), would need to be explained in a more detailed way for me to be able to address it, as I’m not entirely certain what the complaint is. Ditto with Anti-Male Double Standards (3).”
O: Stay tuned…
“Reproductive Rights (5) is being worked on by many scientists, and there is a reversible birth control option currently undergoing human trials.”
O: And this is to be commended – but is not the focus of the MRA agenda. The MRA agenda is most keenly focused on securing Roe For Men rights. Which has nothing to do with contraceptives, just as Original Roe had nothing to do with contraceptive use. It is right. And it is just.
O.
Yeah, we decided ProPatria Truthteller was MRAL after the whole ‘Christian neoDadaism’ thing. That plus a couple of Steele phrases he kept repeating. It was too much.
And his response in this thread is … Steele’s response to the accusation. Nearly verbatim.
Hilarity, it has ensued.
…
Oh, yes, that huge, HUGE issue.
Citation?
Osidian: why should feminists do your work? It always seems to boil down to that with you all.
I await your dishonest answer.