So here’s an interesting chart. Guess what it represents?
A) The membership of the David Duke Fan Club
B) The racial breakdown of the most successful Liberace impersonators
C) The demographics of the Men’s Rights subreddit
Well, ok, that was too easy. It is of course all of the above. I’m guessing. It’s definitely C, at least, as this chart was prepared to show the results of the 2013 Men’s Rights subreddit demographic survey.
Now, you might say, well, isn’t Reddit itself a pretty white place? And you would be right. But the Men’s Rights subreddit seems to be a bit whiter — and a lot less black — than Reddit as a whole, if Quantcast’s estimates of Reddit’s overall ethnic breakdown are accurate.
In other completely non-surprising news, 89% of Men’s Rights Redditors are men. And a lot of them are libertarians. MRAs complain endlessly that we pigeonhole them as a bunch of entitled white dudes. They’re really not doing much to challenge that assumption.
The most important issue to these fellas (and the small minority that aren’t fellas)? Survey says: False rape accusations.
Other critical issues to the Men’s Rightsers include “custody rights” (which is a bit odd because 92% of those surveyed have no kids), “legal discrimination” (whatever that means), “education discrimination” (this is a thing?), and “male disposability.”
“Male birth control” and “paper abortion,” while relatively less important to the Men’s Rightsers, each got hundreds of votes.
I’m surprised “friendzoning” isn’t at the top of the list, but unfortunately it wasn’t one of the choices. I blame misandry.
RiliKat — hm, a simple “do you feel accepted by your peers?” works.
David — I’m so glad you approve. I enjoy it, really, this is what my fucked up brain was made for. But I was worried it’d just be seen as weird.
Ok, now I really am going to bed, I swear…or I guess morning crazy pills first >.<
@Historophilia:
“Obsidian has got his history wrong.
Black men were often lynched after claims that they had raped white women, but the fact of the matter was that the fast majority of the time these accusations didn’t come from women, but from white men.”
O: Um-hmm. OK, let’s examine that, shall we?
We know that’s not true in the case of Emmit Till; we know that’s not the case in the Tulsa race war either. Moreover, how are we to account for the fact of the numerous false rape charges, of which Brian Banks’ recent case is only one example? Please explain?
“These claims were fabricated by white men as an excuse to lynch black men. Apart from purely symbolically, white women were often not actually involved in any way.”
O: This is not entirely true at all actually.
“So if he wants to blame the stereotype of black men raping white women on someone then he should look to white men.”
O: White Women were in attendance at many lynchings of Black Men, and so they aided and abetted such horrors. They are as responsible.
O.
Argenti – yep, you are right. Silly me. Now go get your sleep.
@Becausescience:
“A little late to the party, but I wonder if Obsidian whatshisface also thinks that the Daily Show is the same thing as the politicians it mocks. Because hey, a thing that’s mocking something is the same as the thing that it’s mocking right?”
O: It certainly can be seen that way. Both Colbert and his sister’s attempts at actually doing the very thing he routinely lampoons in real life went down in flames. That said, I actually enjoyed many elements of the Daily Show. The difference between them and Mr. Futrelle, is that they have no pretense toward actually making any serious argument; Futrelle does.
O.
I notice Obtuse Whatsit doesn’t seem to give a shit about the black women who were lynched.
Hey, Obtuse: you support the MRM, you support people who want rape effectively legalised, who want men to be able to abuse women without hindrance. Trying to set them up as some sort of champions of black men is just a steaming pile of fail, because 1) that’s not what they’re about – they don’t do anything positive for any men, and 2) all they are is a hate group, and they’re recognised as such (see: SPLC).
@Ms. Cloudiah:
“So, I’ve kind of dealt with the lynching thing before — or rather, reported on the NAACP’s own research on lynching:”
O: Per the researches and investigative journalism of Ida B. Wells at the time, these occurances were still against the law – and – were often public events where, even if the Black Men lynched weren’t for charges of rape – were largely attended by White Women. In other words, White Women aided and abetted lynching, in any event.
“On to the present… The Innocence Project is doing fantastic work exonerating (mostly) black men wrongly convicted of a whole range of crimes, and I support their work. But let’s face it, it’s the “War on Drugs” that is mostly responsible for the absolutely horrendous incarceration rates for black men in the US. Black women too! I am in favor of a wholesale re-write of the US criminal code and an overhaul of the criminal “justice” system, but you have to make an effort to understand WHY it is so messed up if you have any chance of fixing it.”
O: Indeed; but the case is made, which is why I broached the topic of the recent Brian Banks’ case – Blac Men are much more likely to be accused of false rape charges. His case, among a great many others over the past century, proves it. Hence the MRA agenda being highly relevant and legitimate in this regard.
O.
@Freemage:
“Obsidian: As has been noted, African-American men face false charges of all sorts at a much higher rate than Caucasians, not just rape. So the benefit to the African-American community of somehow eradicating false rape charges specifically (rather than working for a general better system of justice generally) would only help a very narrow segment of the black community in America overall.”
O: Actually, it would help the matter considerably, given the enormity of the problem facing Black Men. Black Men are charged and convicted of rape at much higher rates than White or even Hispanic Men. Therefore, more strenuous laws and investigative procedures along these lines will help Black Men in particular in a significant way. The MRA agenda, then, is highly relevant to Black Men in particular in this regard.
“And of course, that assumes that the MRM is somehow capable of doing that–despite primarily being a blog circle-jerk/slap-fight, depending on how the in-group politics are going at the time, with very little effort into anything that might qualify as activism.”
O; I wouldn’t disagree; nevertheless, the case and point is made: the MRA agenda in this respect is indeed of grave importance to Black Men, as I have indicated.
“Oh, speaking of activism, folks–I’m going to be writing to Kickstarter, and to two companies I know use KS for their campaigns, and inform them that I will NOT be participating in those campaigns, or any others, so long as KS keeps the policies they currently have in place. (I might accept the notion that those current policies required them to honor the campaign for that PUA monstrosity, since the evidence was outside the KS page on Reddit, and I can see them not thinking of that possibility at the time, but they CAN adjust going forward.) I am going to explicitly suggest Indiegogo 9another crowdfunding site) that they can use if they want my money. Or they can pressure KS to change their policies, either way.”
O; I found it highly interesting – and intsructive – that Mr. Hoisey was able to raise many times the amount he initially requested for his PUA book on Kickstarter – more evidence that they are offering something Men want. Instead of folks like yourself and the Feminists continuing to knock/mock the PUAs for their success, why don’t you all offer a better alternative, and let the free market decide who has the better product?
O.
@Kittensherf:
“I notice Obtuse Whatsit doesn’t seem to give a shit about the black women who were lynched.”
O: Ah. Ad Hominem, what took you so long?
“Hey, Obtuse: you support the MRM, you support people who want rape effectively legalised, who want men to be able to abuse women without hindrance. Trying to set them up as some sort of champions of black men is just a steaming pile of fail, because 1) that’s not what they’re about – they don’t do anything positive for any men, and 2) all they are is a hate group, and they’re recognised as such (see: SPLC)”
O: Yes, I am very familiar with the SPLC’s “report” – which was roundly mocked by just about anyone with any credibility in the media and letters. Everyone knows they are a “solution” looking for a cause at this point in their history. Which is largely irrelevant.
Moreover, I have never claimed that the MRM are the “champions of Black Men” – only saying that the MRA agenda, as made clear by the polls appearing both on Reddit and the GMP, ARE indeed relevant to the lives of Black Men historically and currently. Please do not get mad at me because my mere presence upsets your holier than thou apple cart?
O.
You mean something some group wants. The erfworld KS just ended at over 45k, they were asking for something in the 9~10 range (and I’m getting a plushie and books and SQUEE /irrelevant fansquee)
*is still awake* fuck.
@Kittehserf
And obviously Black women, and other non-White women, are not more likely to be raped than White women. Rape as a racial issue is primarily Black men being falsely accused of rape by White women, especially when we look at it globally.
@God’s Fool:
“Obsidian Files, Mr Ramsey was not an innocent man; he admits to committing domestic violence.”
O: This fact was never in dispute; however, what does that have to do with his heroic actions, more than a decade after the fact? And why didn’t Feminists come to Mr. Ramsey’s defence? That, is what my article at The Spearhead seeks to examine.
Do you have any idea why the Feminists failed in this regard?
“While the ruining of his reputation was unfortunate, he still did the right thing by rescuing the women.”
O: Indeed – and which will likely serve as a powerful deterrent to other Men of doing the same thing in the future. Where are the Feminists on this?
“Feminists and MRAs are too interested in rationality. Ramsey did the right thing, that is his duty, as it is the duty of all men to protect women, and that’s all that matters.”
O: Uh, excuse me, but where is it enshrined in Ameican law that any Man has any such “duty” to any Woman? I’d like to see that Amendment…
“Many feminists no longer want men to protect women because women apparently feel offended by the need to be protected.”
O: Please name some of these “many Feminists”? Because, by all accounts, and as I made clear in my article, it seems abundantly apparent that Feminists most certainly DO want Men to protect Women – often at their own expense…
“Now we see the manosphere aligning with this faction of feminism. What we need is to return to a radical Christian culture, with a patriarchy largely administered by reliable women.”
O: But the USA isn’t a Christian nation, or one governed by any other form of theocratic belief. Thank God for that… 😉
O.
@Freemage:
“Obsidian Files: Well, you’re off to a lovely, lovely start.”
O: Thank you! I accept.
“1: Admit you have no knowledge of the actual subject of the post (to-wit, the racial make-up of the MR sub-reddit).”
O: I did, at the outset of my opening remarks; please read for comprehension?
“2: Offer to engage us in discussion anyway, in the most condescending tone possible.”
O: Look who’s talking?
“3: Link to a completely irrelevant Spearhead article. (There’s definitely something to be said about the media’s treatment of Ramsey’s criminal record, and the likely racist attitudes that underlined that decision. However, the Spearhead article made no mention of his race specifically as a factor, and focused entirely on whining about how horrible the media is to men.)”
O: That article was written by yours truly, and is itself a testament to the fact that the MRA spaces that I regularly inhabit are hardly as racist as Dave attempts to imply. Moreover, as I pointed out in my piece, the Feminists were very much a part of the digital mob that savaged Mr. Ramsey – this, after his heroic deeds, and after repeated and ongoing requests on the part of Feminists for Men to stand up, be counted and intervene whenever a Woman is being mistreated. I asked in the article, that given Mr. Ramsey’s ordeal, what’s in it for a Man – in this case a Black one – to do such a thing? Perhaps you can answer that queston…?
“4: Make a blanket statement about feminist spaces with no support or evidence offered whatsoever and then ask an insulting and irrelevant rhetorical question.”
O: Must we go through such an exercise, when everyone can clearly and plainly see the facts for themselves?
O.
@YHE:
“Of course there would be a lower number of blacks given how a number of MRAs find the very idea of a (probably white) woman having any contact with black cock is disgusting. And that women who do have romantic or sexual relations with them must all be stupid whores.
That and MRAs don’t like black women either.”
O: Assuming the above is true, how then are we to account for the fact that most White Feminist spaces online and off are just as, well, you know, White, as the MRA spaces you all are currently excoriating? What is the difference?
Please explain?
O.
Oh, these assholes and their paper abortions. WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU when Sandra Fluke was being nationally castigated for mentioning that birth control should be covered by insurance? Oh, that’s right — you were agreeing with Rush Limbaugh that she’s a slut. Thousands of anti-choice bills have been passed in the last several decades, hundreds in just the last four years. And now states are passing legislation against contraceptives themselves. My state passed three bills just last week, including one that gives an exemption to religious employers regarding insurance coverage of birth control (something that’s already been litigated at a national level multiple times). And of course the dicks in the House passed that 20 week ban this week.
It’s really very simple, you hateful pieces of shit — you want to continue having sex with women but don’t want kids? Then support comprehensive sex education, full access to contraceptives, and abortion rights. You can’t have it both ways, you disingenuous fucks.
Obsidian: learn what ad hom actually is. Wouldn’t want you to look stupid.
He’s extremely tedious, can we not keep him?
It’s too late for me to have many coherent thoughts on all this (yes my schedule is very weird) but on the survey, two thoughts:
1) could you do it so it uses cookies or otherwise guards against ballot stuffing? I don’t want tampering by the you know whos.
2) I’m more interested in getting good data than in comparisions with the r/mr survey, so don’t feel compelled to match their poorly thought out categories.
Since you’re doing the work here, your choice, but these would be my votes.
DF
DF
DF
DF
@Ms. Tracy:
“Obsidian Files – appreciate the list.”
O: You’re welcome.
“I’m curious to know what, if any, actions those of you in the Men’s Right’s community are taking to bring about change in any of those areas. Honest question.”
O: In that I wouldn’t presume to speak for the community at large, I would suggest you conduct your own investigation on the matter. For my part, I am raising awareness of these and related concerns via my writing online and activities offline.
“I will note that although feminism is listed as the #2 concern on the list, feminism is also concerned with many of the other list items (male gender roles, etc).”
O: And what, if any, actions are they taking in this regard? Could you please list out some of them?
“Some people in your movement may misunderstand what feminism, by and large, is about – we’ve certainly seen that demonstrated over and over (here and elsewhere). What exactly are the concerns you have aboue feminism? Maybe we can lay some of them to rest?”
O: Well, among a great many, is the fact that while Feminism makes its case that the “Patriarchy” has and continues to seek to control or otherwise regulate Female sexual behavior, the Feminists themselves are in fact seeking to do the same wrt Male sexuality. For example, the sheer enormity and reaction in response to the Pickup movement, is one instance; another is the stiff resistance to Roe For Men; another is the campaigns against street harassment and the like; another is the resistance to the legalizing of prostitution; another is the attempts to block Men who who wish to marry Women from overseas, and so on. In the Black community recently, there was a failed attempt to make the case for “Black Male Privilege” which I have addressed here:
Tackling The Bugbear Of “Black Male Privilege”
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/130174
And here:
Obsidian Responds To Jewel Woods’ “Black Male Privilege Checklist”
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/130688
There are other examples and concerns.
O.
@Ms. Tracy:
“Ok. The MRA community is mostly white. Stormfront* is mostly white. What’s the difference between the two?”
O: What’s the differenc between the MRA, Feminist and Stormfront communities, *on the question of Race, which is the topic of this discussion*? You tell me.
“Or were you asking a different question, and just phrased it incorrectly (why is race important)?”
O: No, I asked the question I wanted to ask…
“Most people here are aware that 1st and 2nd wave feminism was shit with regards to non-white women, non-middle/upper class women, trans* women, disabled women etc. Generally, 3rd wave tries to be more inclusive, though I’d say there are still some issues to be ironed out.”
O: What’s taking them so long? They’re just as White as their 1st and 2nd wave “sisters” – and just as cut from the same classes, by all accounts. Black Feminists have little if any real pull or representation among their ranks, and kerfuffles between the two camps are by now legendary. In this respect there is little if any difference between them and the MRA spaces Dave loves to excoriate. Then, there’s the very high likelihood that this very space itself is as White as the Reddit Dave is poking “fun” at.
Oh, the irony…
“Plus, the MRA totally needs more kitties.”
O: How do you know they do not?
O.
@Hellkell:
“Obsidian: learn what ad hom actually is. Wouldn’t want you to look stupid.”
O: Thank you for caring. Even though you Ad Hommed me.
“He’s extremely tedious, can we not keep him?”
O: Oh come on. Where’s your sense of diversity?
O.
Sure, OK. You have your own blog, why not go back there? You’re just another asshole who doesn’t realize words means things. Boring.
@Chie:
“Oh, these assholes and their paper abortions. WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU when Sandra Fluke was being nationally castigated for mentioning that birth control should be covered by insurance? Oh, that’s right — you were agreeing with Rush Limbaugh that she’s a slut.”
O: I cannot speak for anyone else, but I was neutral on the matter of Ms. Fluke.
“Thousands of anti-choice bills have been passed in the last several decades, hundreds in just the last four years. And now states are passing legislation against contraceptives themselves.”
O: My understanding is that the Morning After Pill has now been made widely available without age restrictions, as reported on the BBS last night. Did I miss something?
“My state passed three bills just last week, including one that gives an exemption to religious employers regarding insurance coverage of birth control (something that’s already been litigated at a national level multiple times). And of course the dicks in the House passed that 20 week ban this week.”
O: That’s unfortunate; but what does this have to do with the case for Roe For Men, especially as it relates to Black Men? Please explain?
“It’s really very simple, you hateful pieces of shit — you want to continue having sex with women but don’t want kids? Then support comprehensive sex education, full access to contraceptives, and abortion rights. You can’t have it both ways, you disingenuous fucks.”
O: As far as I am aware, the MRAs I know of fully support all of these things. Funny how Feminists don’t support RFM, though…
O.
“Roe For Men?” Oh, do fuck right off.
As someone with a keen interest in penguin- and chair-related misandry, I want to know when Obsidian Files is going to renounce blogwhoring in all its forms.
(Or just stop doing it, because it’s kind of painful to watch.)
@Hellkell:
“Sure, OK. You have your own blog, why not go back there? You’re just another asshole who doesn’t realize words means things. Boring.”
O: Words like…what, exactly? and I’m here because the current topic directly address me, as I am a Black Man with a documented lengthy history of direct involvement with the online MRA community and Manosphere; therefore, I can directly speak to many of the concerns along those lines that are routinely discussed here and elsewhere. And I can explain why and how, the MRA agenda directly speaks to the concerns of Black Men. Interesting how you cannot engage with that…
Hmm…
O.