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a voice for men drama entitled babies lying liars MRA paul elam

Paul Elam blames me for his alleged ignorance of the blatant fraud on his own site [CORRECTED]

Thanks Obama! (And David Futrelle.) (For more, click image)

CORRECTION: New evidence suggests that the screenshot discussed in this post and elsewhere was not a forgery but the result of a glitch. I offer a correction, and an apology, and a discussion of the implications, here.

So the mighty Paul Elam has acknowledged — in the comments section of Girl Writes What’s blog, at least –that there might just be some sort of problem going on with regard to, you know, that whole fake screenshot thing. You know, the blatant fraud that A Voice for Men mangling — sorry, managing — editor Dean Esmay seems to have engaged in to cover up a mistake.

But, Paul being Paul, he somehow manages to turn his sort-of acknowledgement of the problem into an attack on me, bizarrely blaming me (the person who actually pointed out this fraud) for him not knowing about it before today:

As much as I hate to say it, Futrelle does have a valid point. I am looking in to it today, and unlike Futrelle, I will address the results of my inquiry in public no matter where they end up.

I don’t mind looking into problems, even when they are pointed out by such a bald faced liar. I would have actually been aware of this sooner if his blog were worth reading. I had to become aware of it in your comments to even know there was a problem.

Well, Paul, I would have happily brought my findings to the comments section of A Voice for Men, rather than the comments section of Girl Writes What’s blog, but you may recall I am banned there. And I wonder if anyone there would have had the courage to stand up and say that, gosh, this Futrelle guy has a point, given how quickly people are censored there for deviating from your site’s perverse “conventional wisdom.”

And gosh, Paul, how unfair it is to expect the publisher of a site to be aware of what’s, you know, published on it. Concerns about the story were brought up by your own commenters shortly after it first ran. Esmay referred in an article and an editorial note to my alleged “lies” about the story; it didn’t occur to you to even go look at what I had said? And even aside from the phony screenshot, or anything I’ve written, did you really think that Esmay’s bizarre explanations for the original mistake made any kind of sense?

In other words, are you incompetent, or are you lying about being unaware of the problem until now?

In any case, I await the results of your “investigation.” I am especially eager to see how you will manage to spin things so it becomes someone else’s fault. Will it be some evil conspiracy that “set you up?”

And when exactly have I lied, Paul? Could you offer a citation? When I point out the lies on your site, I fucking back up each claim.

[EDIT: Added some stuff in the “gosh, Paul” paragraph and made a few other changes.]

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inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

This discussion of evangelism is reminding me of that tract I livetweeted.
http://storify.com/inurashii/bible-halp-the-majesty-of-god

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

I’d QFT Radical Parrot, but ze just said it, so yeah, what Radical Parrot said. As a far too common example, there’s an XKCD for that! The difference between the scientists and the newspaper — “the newspaper said…” is a fallacy, “science says…” generally isn’t (rules of Red Herrings still apply of course). For an I,portent Example — scientists largely agree climate change is A Thing, so when people get all “but Fox said…” it’s a fallacy, retorting with studies isn’t (otoh, if you retort with one Big Name ze’s better be an expert in the field, not an intern running the data [as in, I am an expert in nothing, not even fish])

j
j
8 years ago

Ha, I can’t believe how angry you all are over me dismissing Myers. I’m chuckling cause it’s as if I killed your dog by not liking that guy! I struck a /nerve/.

All I have to say is that I deeply apologize for not reading every single blog post of this enigma of a figure and for not learning to both truly understand and respect the immense intellectual breadth he has – so sorry for misrepresenting one of the most important internet philosoph3rs of our age. PZ Myers, greater than Spinoza, Dietzgen, Engels, Dauve, Deluze, Focault, and TIME CUBE combined

Sid
Sid
8 years ago

@freemage: Oh, there are a lot of absolutely terrible pagans, no question. Some of the most violent bigots out there are pagan or pagan-inspired, Gardner was an extreme homophobe even for his time, and a lot of neopagan paths and especially cults boil down to “women and men are the only options, they are absolute, they are innate, and they are literally different species”. And don’t EVEN get me started on the Frosts. My point was that there is a huge difference between us and the Abrahamic religions as far as power goes, and I get tired of hearing atheists say that my dinky little path that has a few thousand adherents worldwide is on equal footing socially with, say, Christianity. I’d disagree, however, that pagans are “foisting” anything on the general populace. We can’t even have workshops without people trying to hurriedly pass laws that would ban us from doing so and preachers testifying that allowing us into a community is condemning that community to Hell. If people choose to take part in New Age stuff, it isn’t because pagans made them do it.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ Sid

It made me really sad when I figured out that “pagan metal” often means “racist xenophobic assholes singing about how Odin/Brigid doesn’t want POC in our country”.

inurashii
inurashii
8 years ago

Ha, I can’t believe how angry you all are over me dismissing Myers. I’m chuckling cause it’s as if I killed your dog by not liking that guy! I struck a /nerve/.

Fu fu fu fu, you have all played right into my hands! Look at how worked up you are, posting in other threads and talking about heavy metal.

Sid
Sid
8 years ago

No joke 🙁 I’ve settled on Celtic/Finnish/etc. folkmetal, because I’m terrified I’ll find a pagan metal group and really like them and then be completely disgusted. Eluveitie, Korpiklaani, and Arkona are pretty lovely, though.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Some of the Irish ones are a bit dodgy too. Korpiklaani…I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but I saw them making some rather eyebrow raising comments about how Finnish society needs to reconsider how open it is to foreigners in one documentary.

Um, Fintroll seem like decent guys? I’m sure someone will now tell me that they’re racist too, though.

Sid
Sid
8 years ago

…Well THAT’s another one that’s going off my Pandora. Godsdammit ;_; On Fintroll, I don’t know if the band itself is racist, but “Fintroll Henri tells racist jokes” was one of the first results when I Googled them.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Figures. Oh, metalheads, why must you be such assholes?

j
j
8 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen

WOOT! Glad for your husband’s victory, workers don’t usually win over here cause the labor law’s ridiculous and our unions suck. What a weak boss BTW, the /threat/ of a strike got them to capitulate! I hope your husband and his workmates maintain their power!

Aaliyah
8 years ago

I can’t even count the number of times I’ve seen YouTube metalheads comment on Judas Priest videos and whine about the fact that Rob Halford is gay. And then there are other metalheads who are like “Even though he’s gay, he’s still awesome so shut up!” (implying that him being gay would be wrong otherwise).

It’s truly an unfortunate sight. I wish there were more non-bigoted metalheads. They’re quite rare.

Radical Parrot
8 years ago

Oh my fucking gods. I hadn’t read the whole thread yet before replying, but about that “this is not fucking harmless” -report, no. No. Nonono. No. Just no. Fuck no. That’s fucking sick. I’m seriously gonna retch. To bleach the brain and appease the furrinati, have an adorable lion cub that’s trying its hardest to roar.

@Argenti: Zie/ze, zir and hir are all okay. Sorry, hadn’t mentioned my preferred gender pronouns earlier, so thanks for being sensitive*.

*Yeah, I know, it’s something that’s sort of expected from a decent person. I’m just in the state of mind right now that I’d rather give positive feedback for the nice and kind things good people do on a daily basis, rather than blow my top over something assholes do. On a daily basis. Fuck this shit.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Ha, I can’t believe how angry you all are over me dismissing Myers. I’m chuckling cause it’s as if I killed your dog by not liking that guy! I struck a /nerve/.

Yes, that’s exactly it. *eyeroll*

Kittehserf
8 years ago

Dvarghundspossen, high fives and whoots to Husband and co-workers!

J – you may be just sixteen, but ferchrissakes grow up. You’ve had good posts here, don’t go blotting your copy book and acting like a troll … or a silly little kid.

pecunium
8 years ago

j: A serious strike threat about a service the public depends on… not to be taken lightly. When the employer knows it’s at a moral disadvantage for being wrong… the victory for labor was certain, so it’s better to make a tactical capitulation and spin it as putting the interests of the public first.

pecunium
8 years ago

Ha, I can’t believe how angry you all are over me dismissing Myers. I’m chuckling cause it’s as if I killed your dog by not liking that guy! I struck a /nerve/.

Of fer chrissake. A nerve? Yeah, I suppose being trollish does strike nerves. Not in the way you think. It’s not like you are going to find people here who like him without reservation, but all in all; he’s a decent guy. I’m not so fond of how he deals with theism, but it’s mostly harmless (because of how prevalent theistic hegemony is in the culture).

But in the decade or so that I’ve read him, he’s said some shit I didn’t like. So what?

He’s not trolling the net, he’s not a raging douchenozzle and you’ve betrayed some basic ignorance; people called you on it.

Trust me, if you “strike a /nerve/” you’ll get a lot more than you got over this. Ask buntzums and harley, or €sobbra, or brz, or Brandon, or NWO, or DKM, or Blackhat, or Tom Martin, or Mr. Mikhail Torvus Butthorn Varpole SteeAL, or Mary Sunshine, or Judgeybitch, or ToySoldier, or Crack EmCee, or any of the other raging assholes who’ve come in here to “tell us how it is”.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Crack EmCee? I missed that one? Or is this another incarnation of Mr. No Name?

Radical Parrot — besides using ze/zir myself, I’m taking lessons from pecunium in “Work like you were living in the early days of a better nation” (which is probably a quote I haven’t bothered to google and am sure he’ll tell us 🙂 )

pecunium
8 years ago

You missed him. he came in, all piss and vinegar in a Thomas Ball thread, and then tried half a dozen ways to get some of us on his side: he played the,”you’re a vet Pec, I expected better of you”; which led to me doing some trivial digging, and him looking even worse.

Then he explained that all cults are based on yoga, and his wife was a murderer; hiding out in france. it was bizarre: Let’s see where it was.

Found it: http://manboobz.com/2011/06/22/arms-and-the-mens-rights-movement/comment-page-6/#comment-32694

There was so much (like which maternal figure it was, and all sorts of inconsistent story).

All in one thread, so that’s the whole thing from there on in

pecunium
8 years ago

It’s from Oysterband (a great group, british, political, angry, celebratory, kick ass, folk, punk, powerful)

And one which is topical to manboobz, The Oxford Girl

You know how you so much Emily Autumn is apposite?

Same with Oysterband.

(and they don’t re-release songs, when they have one on more than one album, it’s a different recording).

Kittehserf
8 years ago

€sobbra

Perfect.

theladyzombie
theladyzombie
8 years ago

Speaking of metalheads – I totally want to read this book!

What Are You Doing Here?: A Black Woman’s Life and Liberation in Heavy Metal
http://www.amazon.com/What-Are-You-Doing-Here/dp/1935950053/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371694597&sr=8-1&keywords=what+are+you+doing+here

Tracy
8 years ago

Just want to add to whomever linked to Freethought Blogs… Patheos is a good place as well, Hemant Mehta’s blog is there (The Friendly Atheist) and he’s always a good read.

By the time I catch up on these comment threads, they’ve far surpassed me…

pecunium
8 years ago

kittehs: not quote perfect, I think (on inspection) this is better:

€sob-brah!

Kittehserf
8 years ago

How about €sob-bro? 😀

MaudeLL
8 years ago

@ j
There’s tons of legitimate criticism that can be said about PZ Myers, he regularly spouts bullshit (and so do I, and so do you). The problem is, what you wrote doesn’t make any sense. You’re doing the equivalent of people coming here saying “I know you want men to die! You’re all disciples of Valerie Solanas!” We don’t like straw feminists, there’s no need to add to the straw.
We’re loaded with bales from MRAs already. (they think they struck a /nerve/ too btw)

Kittehserf
8 years ago

he regularly spouts bullshit (and so do I, and so do you)

I spout catshit. Less cleaning up afterward.

pecunium
8 years ago

Oh wow… I 1: completely forgot about The Naïf, and 2:that necroing the CrackEmcee thread was his debut.

MordsithJ
8 years ago

That metal book looks all kinds of awesome.

It reminds me of something I haven’t thought about in a long time, back in the 80’s I had a Ronnie James Dio album (vinyl), and on the inside sleeve was a group shot of some fans, maybe they were the official fan club, I don’t know. Anyway as you can imagine the group was mostly white and male, but right in the front row center there was a black girl, and I always used to wonder who she was and how she felt in that crowd. I was intrigued by her.

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

1) I should’ve googled that quote ages ago, that song’s awesome
2) please don’t summon the boring one
2b) our glossary troll, the one we spent a week+ on, stuck to the glossary but damned did I have fun having a go at him (someone explain how “Assange isn’t a rapist but an activist” and “corsets make one less likely to feel being stabbed” can possibly be part of the same argument?)
2b.1) he’s the cause of Spot That Fallacy!!!
3) …what’s the “I struck a /nerve/” dude’s nym? I forgot already

LBT
LBT
8 years ago

And I missed an atheism fight! Man, I miss all the good stuff.

I feel… WEIRD about spirituality. In my mind, power corrupts, and relations with high power differentials are something to be avoided, so getting involved with gods would be like, the most dangerous thing ever, unless I was absolutely, positively sure they didn’t actually exist.

So the only gods I’d be interested in doing business with are the ones I’m POSITIVE don’t exist or have any power. Like, I dunno, Twiddledoo of the Kitchen Sink, patron of cooks, dishwashers, and those annoying bits that get caught in the drain. (To appease, clean sink every day.)

Aaliyah
8 years ago

@Argenti

“3) …what’s the “I struck a /nerve/” dude’s nym? I forgot already”

It’s “j” – just as forgettable as his contributions.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

@Marie:

Yay your husband and his workmates that they got what they wanted without strike 🙂 (not like I think strike is bad, I’m just glad they didn’t have to do it.)

Yeah, everyone was really surprised about this turn of events, since they’d announced the strike like a week ago and the employers had, during that week, put up a decidedly stubborn front, so everyone was prepared to have traffic standing still for days or even weeks… and then it turns out their stubbornness was just a bluff all along. When the strike was like eight hours away they caved in.
There are plausible theories as to why that is, but I won’t go into that, that would be a wall of text uninteresting to everyone else.

I will tell you something hilarious though. The bus drivers are in a different sub-union of LO, and they had already begun their strike yesterday by stopping various bus lines. Now, there’s this libertarian youth organization that hates strikes and unions because, well, they’re libertarian asshats. They got hold of a bus that they were gonna run to compensate for the standing ones, and they also gave out a message to the press according to which it’s wrong to use the power of the collective to force employers to give way, everyone ought to negotiate their shifts and their pay as individuals, and this doesn’t mean they take sides in the fight between employers and workers (right, totally not), just that they believe in the individual.
Then they ran their bus for a few hours until they got tired of driving and just dropped the whole thing. And that’s the hilarious part.

Kittehserf
8 years ago

::flaps hands excitedly::

@LBT

There’s a Discworld Goddess just for you!

Funny thing is, I guess I’m a deist-y-sort – I believe there’s a creator spirit but I don’t think of it as interventionist or personal* – but it’s so far from my interests/concerns with the afterlife that it really doesn’t figure at all. Spirit for me is just domestic, and what little curiosity I had about all that side of it fizzled out long ago. I asked Louis some questions, got a few answers (and he doesn’t pretend to much knowledge on the matter), and left it at that. Capital H Home is what it’s about for me. 🙂

Etelka
8 years ago

That infomercial guy probably shouldn’t eat all those Cheetos anyway.

Lisa
Lisa
8 years ago

Oh snap.

love you

Etelka
8 years ago

Actually, he could salvage the ones that hadn’t touched the floor by sliding a manila folder or a takeout menu between the bowl and the spilled pile. Flip the bowl over, and he’d have a sensible portion.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

@theladyzombie:

Yikes, and I hope I didn’t tread on any nerves. I got a fairly mild cult-upbringing, and I tend to try to deal with it by being sarcastic and dismissive. (I think when we compared notes a relatively high number of Boobzers had grown up in a fundamentalist atmosphere of one sort or another)

cloudiah
8 years ago

You’ll all be glad to know that AVfM has now acknowledged their error, by hiding the acknowledgement on an old/dead post that no one is reading and by blaming David, the internet, and Google. It’s Update #3 here: http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/government-tyranny/moral-turpitude-an-open-letter-to-facebook/

cloudiah
8 years ago

p.s. I really, REALLY want to see Dean Esmay unleash his mighty “knowledge” of how Google works in a separate article, because that shit is hilarious. Please, Dean? Pretty please?

theladyzombie
theladyzombie
8 years ago

I didn’t mean to come across as cult damaged and embittered! Sorry all! It’s mostly that I take objection when people consider JWs as just harmless kooks. Not that any of you here did.

I used to make ex-JW/anti-Watchtower videos on Youtube and would get all sorts of apologists who tried to say “just get over it” or that I was lying because they personally knew or worked with JWs who were nice. It’s like, yes, I understand that an individual JW may be a nice person, but they belong to a cult and it’s their mission to try and convert you.

Howard, I like to employ satire and sarcasm too when talking about cults. It’s fun!

thekidwiththereplaceablehead

That screenshot shows an artifact caused by Jason’s slow internet connection, his screen shot software, and his browser, which he was able to demonstrate to my satisfaction is in fact a glitch and is not reasonably declared a forgery.

lol. It’s an artifact caused by searching for “violence against”, then adding “men” to the end of the query before you take a screenshot.

That none of the super geniuses at AVfM thought to turn off search personalization before they made claims about the significance of the top google search results does not inspire confidence in their knowledge of search lore.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

@Theladyzombie

There definitely needs to be an Atheistboobz blog! I’d read it daily. I’m an atheist myself but I’m up to my back teeth with all the stupid shit smug, atheist shitstains say.

Word. I’m pretty sure there’s no God, but this is one of the main reasons I don’t feel comfortable in Atheist spaces online, or even like to call myself an atheist. (The other reasons are rampant Islamophobia, and the fact that I don’t give a fuck if other people think there is a God/gods/something)

@Freemage

But I refuse to give up on ‘movement atheism’, because there’s a whole lot of shit going on in this country, derived specifically from religious beliefs and institutions. Weakening the power of, say, Christian fundamentalism in U.S. politics isn’t gonna get rid of sexism and homophobia (so this isn’t the only fight, and you don’t have to be a movement atheist to be a feminist*), but I really do believe it will make those fights a lot easier.

One doesn’t have to be an atheist to support any of that, though. I got interested in it via Pagan blogs that focused on church/state separation, and I know some Christians who are into it, too.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

@Freemage

There’s also institutional prejudice that occurs on the ground. Don’t forget the Dianic pagans who refuse to allow transwomen into their groups, on the grounds that they aren’t ‘true women’.

But is that a religion problem or a transphobia problem?

Falconer
8 years ago

@Pecunium: Oyster Band is awesome. June Tabor is a great singer.

Oyster Band x June Tabor is my jam.

@Tracy: I posted the Freethought Blogs link, specifically for the Atheism+ advocacy. I don’t read much Patheos, and I should read more, but it seems like for every Mehta they’ve got an Anchoress.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
8 years ago

@Kittehserf I like to refer to my MIL’s kitchen drawers as “shrines to Anoia”.

@Etelka

Actually, he could salvage the ones that hadn’t touched the floor by sliding a manila folder or a takeout menu between the bowl and the spilled pile. Flip the bowl over, and he’d have a sensible portion.

Bah, too much work. Dry foods spilled on relatively clean floors are totally still edible 😉

Falconer
8 years ago

Wait, wait, Crack EmCee mistook Ami Angelwing’s Magic remix cards for TAROT?!!

… Could he read?

And now he’s basically admitting that he expects to get his way because he can thump people.

katz
8 years ago

So the only gods I’d be interested in doing business with are the ones I’m POSITIVE don’t exist or have any power. Like, I dunno, Twiddledoo of the Kitchen Sink, patron of cooks, dishwashers, and those annoying bits that get caught in the drain. (To appease, clean sink every day.)

I’ve got the god for you.