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a voice for men drama entitled babies lying liars MRA paul elam

Paul Elam blames me for his alleged ignorance of the blatant fraud on his own site [CORRECTED]

Thanks Obama! (And David Futrelle.) (For more, click image)

CORRECTION: New evidence suggests that the screenshot discussed in this post and elsewhere was not a forgery but the result of a glitch. I offer a correction, and an apology, and a discussion of the implications, here.

So the mighty Paul Elam has acknowledged — in the comments section of Girl Writes What’s blog, at least –that there might just be some sort of problem going on with regard to, you know, that whole fake screenshot thing. You know, the blatant fraud that A Voice for Men mangling — sorry, managing — editor Dean Esmay seems to have engaged in to cover up a mistake.

But, Paul being Paul, he somehow manages to turn his sort-of acknowledgement of the problem into an attack on me, bizarrely blaming me (the person who actually pointed out this fraud) for him not knowing about it before today:

As much as I hate to say it, Futrelle does have a valid point. I am looking in to it today, and unlike Futrelle, I will address the results of my inquiry in public no matter where they end up.

I don’t mind looking into problems, even when they are pointed out by such a bald faced liar. I would have actually been aware of this sooner if his blog were worth reading. I had to become aware of it in your comments to even know there was a problem.

Well, Paul, I would have happily brought my findings to the comments section of A Voice for Men, rather than the comments section of Girl Writes What’s blog, but you may recall I am banned there. And I wonder if anyone there would have had the courage to stand up and say that, gosh, this Futrelle guy has a point, given how quickly people are censored there for deviating from your site’s perverse “conventional wisdom.”

And gosh, Paul, how unfair it is to expect the publisher of a site to be aware of what’s, you know, published on it. Concerns about the story were brought up by your own commenters shortly after it first ran. Esmay referred in an article and an editorial note to my alleged “lies” about the story; it didn’t occur to you to even go look at what I had said? And even aside from the phony screenshot, or anything I’ve written, did you really think that Esmay’s bizarre explanations for the original mistake made any kind of sense?

In other words, are you incompetent, or are you lying about being unaware of the problem until now?

In any case, I await the results of your “investigation.” I am especially eager to see how you will manage to spin things so it becomes someone else’s fault. Will it be some evil conspiracy that “set you up?”

And when exactly have I lied, Paul? Could you offer a citation? When I point out the lies on your site, I fucking back up each claim.

[EDIT: Added some stuff in the “gosh, Paul” paragraph and made a few other changes.]

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Falconer
8 years ago

@inurashii: I can tell by how you always lose the argument, right?

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

@Freemage:

But I refuse to give up on ‘movement atheism’, because there’s a whole lot of shit going on in this country, derived specifically from religious beliefs and institutions.

Looks like that to an outsider too. As a theist, I’m also VERY much in favour of a secular state. Just like atheists don’t want to be told to believe, I don’t want to be told WHAT and HOW to believe.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Dvärghundspossen
@Freemage:

But I refuse to give up on ‘movement atheism’, because there’s a whole lot of shit going on in this country, derived specifically from religious beliefs and institutions.

Looks like that to an outsider too. As a theist, I’m also VERY much in favour of a secular state. Just like atheists don’t want to be told to believe, I don’t want to be told WHAT and HOW to believe.

Damn straight. One of the most chilling moments of my fundamentalist life was when somebody asked the preacher about ‘freedom of religion’ and how that would be applied to Muslims.

“You aren’t serioulsy going ot argue that the founding fathers had muslims in mind, are you?”

Bam. Freedom of religion, as long as it’s an approved religion.

Scary stuff. We need a heck of a lot less of that.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

On the subject of freedom of religion, lots of asshole atheists here in Sweden keep on purposely (I have to believe it’s on purpose; nobody can be that stupid for real) misunderstanding what that means. They say “To me, freedom of religion also means freedom from religion” and everyone’s like yeah, that’s right, you don’t have to be religious if you don’t want to, but they then elaborate what they mean and say that church bells, prayer calls from mosques and in general anything that sounds or looks religious must be banned from public space, because otherwise their sensitive atheist minds might be hurt by hearing or seeing something religious.

Uh, no. THAT’S not what “freedom of religion” means.

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

Dvärghundspossen: I was a self-described ‘political atheist’ long before I became a philosophical one. I definitely realize the value of individuals such as yourself, and thank you for the support for the real cause.

********

Evo-psych is actually a lot like the “men’s movement”. In both cases, the concept, using the words without any connotation, is sound: “Men have unique issues under the current societal system; we should address those problems”; “Evolution would have a dramatic impact on the heuristics we use to live our lives; studying how those evolutionary responses–which would have developed far more slowly than our societies have–is a good way to gain insight into some of our behavior.” But both are just so much flotsam, because they refuse to actually do the work. Instead, they sit back and pronounce a bunch of half-baked ‘theories’ and call it a day.

*********

Howard: Especially since, y’know, there’s actual quotes about Muslims being included in the First Amendment rubric. I mean, seriously–it’s not hard to find. It’s actually harder to find a reference to non-believers than to Islam.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Howard: Especially since, y’know, there’s actual quotes about Muslims being included in the First Amendment rubric. I mean, seriously–it’s not hard to find. It’s actually harder to find a reference to non-believers than to Islam.

That’s not a Fox News approved talking point, so I think we can safely say let’s not let the facts get in the way of our talking points.

daintydougal
daintydougal
8 years ago
Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Yes, and when IS white history month???

These fucking guys.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

@Freemage; Actually, I’m somewhat involved with the Swedish atheist movement right now. I was first contacted by the head of their organization to be a participant in a TV show he was hosting. Like a talk show handling various philosophical subjects. That same guy later on mailed me asking me to write an article for a magazine he’s editing, and another guy in their lead asked me to hold a lecture on free will for their atheist study circle. At that point I felt like I had to ask “Sure, I can do that too, as long as you don’t mind a religious person lecturing you”, but he was cool with that.

Funny how things turn out. Like, one month you’re helping out a PhD student in theology (on his dissertation on free will and hell), next month you’re on a talk show with head of the atheists…

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

Haha, I realize that came off as “look at me! I’ve been on TV!” or something. What I wanted to say was just that it’s cool when theists and atheists don’t treat each other as automatic enemies just because we believe differently.

daintydougal
daintydougal
8 years ago

it’s cool when theists and atheists don’t treat each other as automatic enemies just because we believe differently.

I was chatting with some people recently and we were actually getting along. They had no agenda or insane grievances to project. It was so refreshing.

@ mr Bannister

But what about the poor poor overlooked menzzzzzzz?? Men get LITERALLY no air time. At all. Ever. Fact. ESPECIALLY white men.

theladyzombie
theladyzombie
8 years ago

Here’s an example of some of the issues concerning evo-psych. Granted, this is a popular media article that was written to purposely titillate the audience, but I think it illustrates some of the problems with EP. I’m no good at hyperlinking so I’ll apologize in advance.

New Theory on Why Men Love Breasts
http://www.livescience.com/23500-why-men-love-breasts.html

One of them is the problem of teasing out modern cultural influences from human evolution. In this case, the researcher proposes that the oxytocin produced during breastfeeding that helps mother and child bond, also works when her male partner stimulates her breasts, so the bond between partners is also strengthened. Ergo, men have evolved to love female breasts.

Okay, several problems with this. First, not all cultures in human history have fetishized female breasts. Many cultures view breasts as utilitarian and not erotic. While it may be true that manual stimulation of the breasts produces oxytocin, to say that men “evolved” to love breasts because of this is quite a leap. However what you can do is look at various human cultures and compare them. If all human cultures in the past as well as modern ones fetishized female breasts, then yeah, the researcher may have a sound hypothesis. But we know that isn’t the case.

Second, the falsification problem. The researcher would, for instance, have to find this effect in a statistically significant amount of human cultures, both past and present. How could this be done reliably and validly?

Third, not all women can breastfeed successfully and not all women enjoy having their breasts stimulated. So what happens in those cases where the woman doesn’t receive the effect of oxytocin? Does the researcher mean to imply that she will be unable to bond with her child or her partner?

Anyway, those are just a few of the problems with this particular research, at least according to the article’s reporting of it. A lot of evo-psych research is like this (shaky falsification, post-hoc analysis, etc.) and that’s why I sniff at it (at this point in time).

There are probably others here than can do a better job of explaining this than I have though.

j
j
8 years ago

Man , David is such a liar with his easily verifiable facts and “evidence”. God, every single blog on Manboobz is such conjecture -Tom Martin didn’t REALLY call 97% of all women sluts, he called them whores God get your facts straight you mangina female apologist

@Falconer
Yeah I’m aware of PZ Myers – he’s an islamophobe who writes a dumb blog I hate… Really, just because the man doesn’t hate women doesn’t mean he can’t be boorish or obnoxious. He isn’t a particularly transgressive figure within the atheist movement, he still goes on about how anyone who believes in god is stupid and “irrational” and anyone who doesn’t is a beacon of “reason” , and will defend his more disgusting comrades to the death (racists like Sam Harris and Pat Condell) Seriously, if you think that any real problem in society could be fixed if everyone became an atheist I’m not going to take you seriously. I think I care less about creationist nonsense getting taught in schools and more about the fact that the schoolkids, regardless, are going to live in a society which is capitalism on steroids! Movement atheism seems to be really myopic considering all the actual problems in society, I really can’t imagine any of these UnHoly Warriors going on about anything that actually matters. I may be sixteen, but it all just seems so… /childish/.

Also I’m a ‘his’ not a ‘hir’, and quite comfortable with that!

@Dvärghundspossen
Silly question: are you with the LO? I think you said you were Swedish and I hear a lot of swedes are in that union. (something like eighty percent union density in the whole country, wow!) I also greatly admire syndicalism and am wondering how you and other swedes perceive the SAC. Are they cool or just silly?

There is power in a union!

daintydougal
daintydougal
8 years ago

Morning listening on radio 4. AND FEMINAZI’S TRY TO CLAIM WE’RE NOT LIVING IN A MATRIARCHY?????? WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!111!!

Today: Morning news and current affairs with Justin Webb and John Humphrys, including George Osborne on tax

The life scientific: Jim Al-Khalili and David Spiegelhalter discuss risk

One to one: Owen Bennett-Jones talks to Mick Flynn

Book of the week: Read by Kenneth Cranham

Womans hour: Beatrice Mtetwa, human rights’ lawyer working in Zimbabwe. With Jenni Murray.

Dangerous visions: Jane Rogers dramatises her award winning novel.

Shared planet: Monty Don explores a puzzling dilemma

Tales from the stave: Acclaimed baritone Roderick Williams joins Frances Fyfield to study the manuscripts of George Butterworth’s A Shropshire Lad

Point proven.

Sid
Sid
8 years ago

I never feel particularly comfortable around “movement” atheists. I’m sure some of them are wonderful, but so many (see: pretty much all of the ones I’ve encountered) completely lack the ability to distinguish between “theistic religion” and “privileged theistic religion”. I’m a pagan polytheist. Christians don’t treat me any better than they treat atheists (and it’s a real treat being called ableist slurs by BOTH Christians and atheists!).

Falconer
8 years ago

@Falconer
Yeah I’m aware of PZ Myers

I thought it was very likely that you were, but maybe you were one of today’s 10,000.

Also, it’s not just PZ Myers, it’s Ed Brayton and Jen McCreight and AronRa and Greta Christina and lots more besides.

– he’s an islamophobe who writes a dumb blog I hate…

So objective, there. Saying that Islam is problematic does not an Islamophobe make. Do you have a cite for the Islamophobia claim?

Really, just because the man doesn’t hate women doesn’t mean he can’t be boorish or obnoxious.

Did I claim he couldn’t be boorish or obnoxious? You were claiming everyone in movement atheism was an asshole rich white boy, here’s a whole bunch of Atheism+ folks who aren’t all whitecishet.

He isn’t a particularly transgressive figure within the atheist movement,

Given that the Slymepitters hate his guts, and that he’s been a staunch advocate for Rebecca Watson since Elevatorgate first happened, I’d say he’s plenty transgressive within the atheist movement.

he still goes on about how anyone who believes in god is stupid and “irrational” and anyone who doesn’t is a beacon of “reason” , and will defend his more disgusting comrades to the death (racists like Sam Harris and Pat Condell) Seriously, if you think that any real problem in society could be fixed if everyone became an atheist I’m not going to take you seriously.

He doesn’t have any patience for people who argue that science should make room for God Did It. He doesn’t think that one’s religious practices should make an iota of difference, he wants to stop the US from soaking in Christianity.

Got a cite for defending “his more disgusting comrades to the death”? From what I’ve seen, he’s plenty capable of calling out people being assholes in atheism. He’s all over the Women in Skepticism 2 debacle.

Got a cite for PZ thinking that everyone becoming atheists would fix the “real problems?”

I think I care less about creationist nonsense getting taught in schools and more about the fact that the schoolkids, regardless, are going to live in a society which is capitalism on steroids!

Newsflash: People can care about multiple issues at a time. Capitalism On Steroids! is an issue that many people can get behind, regardless of their religious convictions, but god forbid atheists talk about maybe not teaching woo in schools.

Movement atheism seems to be really myopic considering all the actual problems in society, I really can’t imagine any of these UnHoly Warriors going on about anything that actually matters.

Yep, bridling our children’s ability to ask questions, making non-Christians feel unwelcome in our society, schools, businesses, and the military, blatantly disregarding the Constitution … not one of those is a “real problem.”

I may be sixteen, but it all just seems so… /childish/.

If only they’d asked you first, huh?

Also I’m a ‘his’ not a ‘hir’, and quite comfortable with that!

That’s fine, thanks for letting me know your preferred pronoun.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

@Falconer: I’ve sometimes been somewhat critical of the way PZ approaches Islam.

I think Anthony K (Brownian) (nope, it was Ing) had an excellent breakdown of why it was problematic…. I was thinking a few years, but it looks like a year back, in comments. Here.

Which is notable; PZ got pushback from his commentariet, and as near as I can tell, has been doing better about it since then.

Sorry, that doesn’t lend itself to a black and white ‘PZ is good or bad, answer now’ discussion, but that’s life for you.

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

At this point, it’s apparent that J is, w/re: to PZ, a lying douchebag. This bit alone–“anyone who doesn’t is a beacon of “reason””–is so far removed from the reality of PZ’s writing that it’s either a willful and deliberate lie, or the product of someone who has never more than once skimmed the blog looking for gripe-points.

I can get not being a fan of the man–he IS one of the more abrasive and aggressive anti-theists out there, and some folks just don’t like that mode of communication. But the notion that he immediately grants a pass to all and any atheists is inane and fabricated.

freemage
freemage
8 years ago

Sid: That’s a fair cop. My wife’s a pagan, as well, and I certainly wouldn’t hit her with ableist slurs, so I see no reason to deploy them against other pagans, either.

OTOH, there is a lot of anti-science woo that gets foisted upon the public by self-described pagans, New Agers and so forth. There’s also institutional prejudice that occurs on the ground. Don’t forget the Dianic pagans who refuse to allow transwomen into their groups, on the grounds that they aren’t ‘true women’.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Also I’m a ‘his’ not a ‘hir’, and quite comfortable with that!

I am so offended that someone thought I might not be cis! Also, I’m 16, hear my words of wisdom.

katz
8 years ago

On the subject of freedom of religion, lots of asshole atheists here in Sweden keep on purposely (I have to believe it’s on purpose; nobody can be that stupid for real) misunderstanding what that means. They say “To me, freedom of religion also means freedom from religion” and everyone’s like yeah, that’s right, you don’t have to be religious if you don’t want to, but they then elaborate what they mean and say that church bells, prayer calls from mosques and in general anything that sounds or looks religious must be banned from public space, because otherwise their sensitive atheist minds might be hurt by hearing or seeing something religious.

Uh, no. THAT’S not what “freedom of religion” means.

This would certainly be the American understanding also, but there are legitimate alternate approaches to the relationship between church and state. For instance, I know that in France, there’s a general belief that religious expression doesn’t belong in the public sphere, less to protect delicate atheist ears than because they have a history of religious wars and don’t want that to happen again.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Yeah, citing Sam Harris when PZ got into a fued with him? Because Sam Harris said he was in favor of racial profiling?

It’s, um, telling.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Citing Sam Harris as an example of somebody PZ doesn’t criticize.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

I really dislike showy religiosity (partly because it contradicts what most religions actually say about how one should show their devotion), but I’m not sure why church bells/the call to prayer/other stuff that basically happens in the background and doesn’t involve actively attempting to prosthelytize is a problem. Some people may find those sounds annoying, but constant Christmas music in stores from November 1st to Xmas Day can get annoying too and most people wouldn’t suggest banning that.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

but constant Christmas music in stores from November 1st to Xmas Day can get annoying too and most people wouldn’t suggest banning that.

DAMMIT THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT LEGISLATIVE BATTLE OF OUR TIME–NO MORE JINGLE BELLS!!!

In all seriousness, though, we have existing rules about when other people’s noises/shows of devotion become an intrusion into our lives. The idea of banning other people’s shows of devition does get really…. intrusive.

filo4000
filo4000
8 years ago

what a real let down, I was really excited for his tripling (quadrupling?) down on the lie, I wanted to see how far his minions would go

filo4000
filo4000
8 years ago

hey david I have a suggestion, make a new post called ‘post in the comments all of the specific lies and falsehoods I have spoken against the mrm’ and don’t let regular users come in and post in there, I just want a nice big empty thread

Argenti Aertheri
8 years ago

Need new Christmas songs? There,s an XKCD for that!

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@sittie kitty

Can I ask… how on earth do you keep so many threads open/going at once? Am I missing some Sūpr Sēkret™ ability?

I just have a whole window for manboobz when I have a lot open, and other for other internet things XD

@jakey

Still, my point about scale remains. Even if you think Hitchens wrote a sexist piece, that doesn’t then make him a raging misogynists. For one thing, what then is Elam?

“Just remember, there is no grey area! If someone isn’t as sexist as Elam, they must be totally elgatartian!!!!!!!”

mentally placed him in the Raging Misogynist category (right next to the only other one, Perfect Feminist).

…I am not sure there is much I can add to this. Jake, you’re the only one here acting like this is an all or nothing.

@shaenon

The second is an AskMen.com article, “Top 10 Ways to Attract Her With Humor.”

And, I am now reading that article, because banging my head against the wall by clicking on things I think will be sexist is a hobby for me for some reason.

that was not sarcasm.

Okay, I read it. Lots of bullshit, but

Mimic her […]Women find this attitude VERY attractive

I think the author has confused attractive with annoying? Though that could be said about many things in the article.

When a woman compliments you in ANY way, see it as your chance to bust on her.

Really, this whole article seems to be ‘how to alienate women you meet while holding the confirmation bias that you are funny instead of an asshole’.

Swat her with something
This is one of my favorites: Pick up something small and swat her with it. Now, I don’t mean hit her in a way that will hurt or leave a mark; I mean pick up a napkin and swat her in the arm with it when she makes a smart-alecky comment.

I feel like this would be a very good way for a guy to convince me to throw a drink in his face and cuss him out.

If she opens her mouth and gives you the “I can’t believe you just said that” look, most guys will cave in and say, “Oh, I was just kidding.” DON’T DO THAT! It makes you look like a Wussy. Instead you need to turn it up a notch

No commentary, other than solidifying my view that the whole thing is how to get irritation from women :/

wow sorry for the derail. I’ll post this now before wordpress eats it.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

Can I ask… how on earth do you keep so many threads open/going at once? Am I missing some Sūpr Sēkret™ ability?

The RSS feed and a good reader! I seriously don’t have time to keep up with everything, but it enables me to see which threads are active and jump on comments that catch my eye.

katz
8 years ago

DAMMIT THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT LEGISLATIVE BATTLE OF OUR TIME–NO MORE JINGLE BELLS!!!

But instead we’ve legislated the exact opposite!

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

😀

pecunium
8 years ago

marie: That article is PUA light. It’s all about seeing how much you can get away with. If she puts up with that, it’s on to more aggressive shit, because he knows he can keep pushing.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@cassandrasays

I am so offended that someone thought I might not be cis! Also, I’m 16, hear my words of wisdom.

Hey, everyone has to be 16 sometime 😉 Though first part of sentence I’m all makey-sense of (english language fails me is there a word I need?) Probably second part too, since I’m sure I said some stuff I’d regret when I was 16, but I’d really rather not use the age as snark. Idk if that made any sense? Sorry if I’m being annoying, just rambly today.

@filo4000

hey david I have a suggestion, make a new post called ‘post in the comments all of the specific lies and falsehoods I have spoken against the mrm’ and don’t let regular users come in and post in there, I just want a nice big empty thread

If you truly desire an empty thread you can make your own blog…

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@pecunium

marie: That article is PUA light. It’s all about seeing how much you can get away with. If she puts up with that, it’s on to more aggressive shit, because he knows he can keep pushing.

Definitely 🙁 And more icky than I’d originally assumed it’d be.

…I’ve really got to stop opening links I know will make me angry.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

In all seriousness, though, we have existing rules about when other people’s noises/shows of devotion become an intrusion into our lives. The idea of banning other people’s shows of devition does get really…. intrusive.

Yeah, I mean, even the truly intrusive stuff like Jehovas Witnesses going door to door, you can always tell them to go away. Stuff that’s essentially background noise…society is full of annoying background noise. The only way to avoid it is to join a commune where only the background noise that you approve of will be around.

Howard Bannister
8 years ago

The only way to avoid it is to join a commune where only the background noise that you approve of will be around.

And, from experience, even that isn’t going to be enough. Eventually one of the other cult members will want to sing a hymn written after 1923, and then SPLITTERS….

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
8 years ago

I have a Jehovas Witness who comes to my door every couple months. He’s super nice, and I always have really interesting conversations with him. The last time he was here I told him I didn’t believe in the bible, and he stopped instantly (and stopped his companion) and told me he would come back later once he found compelling evidence that didn’t rely on the bible. I was kind of shocked, he listened to what I said and respected it. Don’t get many people who do that, most just fall back onto “but the bible said this” like his companion did. Honestly, he’s one of the nicest people and I would totally invite him in for tea. He hasn’t been back around but I’m kind of looking forward to it, just to see what he’s come up with and to have another conversation.

OnnaStik
OnnaStik
8 years ago

I know the conversation’s drifted a lot, but I had to comment on

In other words, are you incompetent, or are you lying about being unaware of the problem until now?

onnastik
onnastik
8 years ago
CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

A Witness handed me a pamphlet outside the coffee shop the other day and it was hilarious, she was all “just read it when you have time, it doesn’t have to be now”. Lovely woman, even if I do think she’s in a cult.

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
8 years ago

I have them as clients pretty often, and they’re usually the nicest people to work with. Super cheerful and they rarely prosylatise to me.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

@J: I’m not in the LO since they don’t organize university professors, they’re more for low-educated jobs. I’m in TCO, which is one of two unions for academics. Husband is in LO though. They’re divided into various sub-unions, so it’s never the case that the entire LO goes on a strike, but their sub-unions sometimes do.
SAC are basically more radical but also has less of an impact since they’re a much smaller organization.

Dvärghundspossen
8 years ago

AND to everyone who cheered for Husband, there will be no strike now!

Here’s a brief and completely impartial summary of what happened:

Employers: You, the workers, should totally be prepared to work super-shitty schedules for shitty pay for the sake of our immense profits! *twirls moustache*
Workers: No we won’t! We’re gonna go on a strike!
Employers: Now you’re being unreasonable! You’re not being cooperative!
Workers: We tell you, we’re gonna go on a strike!
Employers: That’s just mean, threatening us like that!
Workers: Okay, the strike is on! And we’ve saved up enough money for this to have the trains standing still for WEEKS!
Employers: OMG you’re fucking serious! Have it your way then!

Employers to the press: The nasty, nasty workers wanted to cripple the entire city, but we, the kind, kind employers really care about ordinary people and their need of the commuter train system, so completely for the sake of these ordinary people (and not at all because we care about us making money) we let the nasty, nasty workers have it their way.

theladyzombie
theladyzombie
8 years ago

I know a lot of JWs seem like nice people, but that cult causes them to do some very destructive and harmful things. One of which is shunning family members, even their own children or parents.

Things you can be shunned for: same sex relationships, smoking, premarital sex, celebrating holidays or birthdays, or even voicing your disagreement with Watchtower doctrine. Also, depending on which side of the waffle they’re on, you can be shunned for having been raped because, unless you fight back with every ounce of strength you have, you committed an act of immorality and/or adultery. Isn’t that nice to know if you have a gun to your head or a knife to your throat.

They have written articles about domestic violence that advises women to stay in abusive relationships and examine if they are “truly being submissive to their husbands.”

I was born in and raised in that cult. It ruined my childhood and young adulthood. I’ve made a lot of ex-JW acquaintances and we all share similar experiences. I’ve known people who committed suicide upon being shunned.

I hope I don’t bring anybody down with that. It’s just a hot button with me.

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
8 years ago

Yeah, I’m not defending those aspects of it. I know many people who have had their lives irrevocably ruined by that. I’m sorry that happened to you theladyzombie 🙁 No one should have to deal with religiousity of that fervor.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Living in the Bay Area I’ve run into a few people who had friends or relatives who were involved in the People’s Temple, and by all accounts a lot of the people caught up in that mess were folks you’d have liked if you met them too – kind, a bit hippy-ish, strongly anti-racist. Which just makes what happened at Jonestown even more sad.

Nice people get caught up in cults all the time, unfortunately.

Radical Parrot
8 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen: Yay to union power! Fight the Man! Strength through unity! Power to the people! Make love, not war! Wait, I’m reciting slogans again, ain’t I?

Re argument from authority: I hate it that our hierarchy-loving society has two meanings for the term “authority”: 1) expert in a field through practice and/or education, and 2) assigned position of power derived from the state or other institution, or to the cynical, those individuals in positions where they can be complete dicks to other people and get away with it because I said so, dammit! Now go to your room!

People in the first group, when staying within their field of expertise, are just about the only ones qualified for a non-fallacious argument from authority. Everyone else, not so much.

mnekora
mnekora
8 years ago

The Jehovah’s Witnesses are interesting. They get massive props from me just for rejecting the doctrine of Hell, right up front. If you are going to say that God is all-good, and then embrace a doctrine that makes him unambiguously more evil than human history’s most vile people, that is a large problem. The JWs believe in oblivion for everyone who doesn’t go to heaven.

They also seem to be a lot more honest and thoughtful than any other group who aggressively proselytizes. An amusing story: I used to invite in the JWs and Mormons to chat and have a beverage. But I would always stipulate that if they wanted to preach to me, I wanted equal time to talk to them about atheism. The JWs would always accept these terms AND honor the agreement. The Mormons would always refuse and leave.

Marie
Marie
8 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen

Yay your husband and his workmates that they got what they wanted without strike 🙂 (not like I think strike is bad, I’m just glad they didn’t have to do it.) Jerkass employers for the employers to press thing though 🙁

@theladyzombie

Also, depending on which side of the waffle they’re on, you can be shunned for having been raped because, unless you fight back with every ounce of strength you have, you committed an act of immorality and/or adultery

Fuck >:( That’s a horrible thing to tell someone.

I was born in and raised in that cult. It ruined my childhood and young adulthood. I’ve made a lot of ex-JW acquaintances and we all share similar experiences. I’ve known people who committed suicide upon being shunned.

All the jedi hugs if you want them. That sounds extremely sucky.